AP2.X/3 *STILL* hasn't surpassed AP1.0 for lane changes

[insaneoctane]

While my car was in service, I had an older loaner MS 85 with AP1.0. I didn't realize it was AP1.0 until later when I was trying to figure out why it was so improved! My first observation was on lane changes. WOW does AP1.0 authoritatively and quickly (and efficiently) change lanes. It was like BAM! It was exactly how *I* would have done it, signal, immediately start to move over, did a perfectly smooth lane change. I was so impressed and (before I realized it was AP1.0) wanted to check what version the software was.....2019.16.XX. I was excited to get 2019.16.XX now! (I was on 2019.12.2) to get this quick and smooth lane change on my car! Only a little later did I realize I was in an AP1.0 car and I would *NOT* be getting this in mine. Bummer. I will say there were a few times where AP1.0 just refused to change lanes for me in traffic, but when it did, BAM, with authority and clean. I'm really surprised how long AP2.X has had to just catch AP1.0 in terms of lane changes but hasn't! I do look forward to what the lane changes might become in the future.

Once I got my car back (with 2019.16.3.2 installed), I immediately noticed it was back to the timid and sloooow lane changes

 

[Lunares]

Yea, but AP1.0 will change lanes into a car. There's no blind spot detection or checking for vehicles in the way, that's why it is faster.

HW3 lane changing will get better with better frame rate but it will never be as fast as AP1. And it shouldn't be, since AP1 just instantly changes when you tap it because it assumes you checked

 

[chillaban]

Yeah AP1.0 only had a few feet of detection to the side and corner — it just needs to make sure there’s nothing there and then WHAM it’ll go into the lane. AP2.x lane changes now attempt to use the repeater cam as well as modulate front distance in order to squeeze into spots. The codebase has clearly split where AP2 encodes a waiting period after putting the signal on before actually beginning to move while AP1 you are only supposed to put on the signal after you’ve already manually made sure the lane is clear.

Different semantics. AP2 is labeled a driver assist but the philosophy really feels like a partially autonomous car supervised by a safety driver.

 

[Eno Deb]

It was exactly how *I* would have done it, signal, immediately start to move over, did a perfectly smooth lane change.

I suspect they are now waiting longer because strictly speaking the traffic laws in most (all?) states say you should signal for a while before changing the lane (e.g. in California it's 5 seconds).

Generally I haven't had many problems with the auto lange changes, but I only trigger them if there is plenty of room in the other lane.

 

[chillaban]

I suspect they are now waiting longer because strictly speaking the traffic laws in most (all?) states say you should signal for a while before changing the lane (e.g. in California it's 5 seconds).

Generally I haven't had many problems with the auto lange changes, but I only trigger them if there is plenty of room in the other lane.

Just a pedantic PSA: (also, IANAL but I do weasel out of traffic tickets...) California’s DMV handbook is not the letter of the law. You cannot be cited simply for not obeying the suggestions from the handbook. The truth is in the California Vehicle Code, and to the auxiliary resources it references (usually metro transit authorities are given the ability to dictate specific policies within their own jurisdictions)

In the case of lane changes, the vehicle code says you must signal but not what distance (the 5 seconds number is a handbook suggestion. You are legally required to regurgitate that number for DMV written driving tests, but you cannot be cited just because you signaled for 4 seconds but the law said 5)

CVC22107 governs signaling, and while you are required to signal for 100 feet prior to making a turn, to change lanes it specifically says:

22107.
No person shall turn a vehicle from a direct course or move right or left upon a roadway until such movement can be made with reasonable safety and then only after the giving of an appropriate signal in the manner provided in this chapter in the event any other vehicle may be affected by the movement.

Law section

When I read this, it says you only have to signal if any other vehicle may be impacted.


P.S. Fun fact: In CA per state law, you are allowed to change lanes in the middle of an intersection. You are also allowed to choose any lane during a turn from multiple turn lanes provided you don’t cause harm to anyone in the process. However, local ordinances are still allowed to override both of these state laws (e.g. they can post a STAY IN LANE sign and that is legally enforceable by the local police)

 

[insaneoctane]

Hmmmm. I must have been driving that MS 85 LIKE A BOSS! I was expecting it to double check my lane changes.... I guess I was lucky I didn't slam into ANYONE. It gives the use of "BAM" in my original post a whole new meaning.

 

[MXWing]

I had a build of EAP that was not wide release that did lane changes at maximum G.

I called it the falcon firmware or rollover testing firmware.

Pulled back inside of 24 hours.

Believe me that fast lane changes are possible in AP2.

Also believe me there’s likely good reasons why it doesn’t.

 

[Knightshade]

Hmmmm. I must have been driving that MS 85 LIKE A BOSS! I was expecting it to double check my lane changes....

There's no hardware on AP1 to check anything about changing lanes though, other than the (shorter range than AP2) ultrasonic sensors that don't see much beyond 1-2 feet away..

The car only has one camera, facing forward.

 

[pdx3181]

Removed - "AP1 still also leads the way in rain-sensing wipers . . ."

Someone with more knowledge than I responded below.

My 2.5 sucked. The loaners were better. I assumed they were 1.0, they apparently were 2.0.

 

[commasign]

Model S AP1: Who needs side and rear facing cameras when you’re built like a tank.

 

[Knightshade]

AP1 still also leads the way in rain-sensing wipers . . .

AFAIK AP1 doesn't do rain sensing wipers at all- instead prior to AP2 all teslas had an independent rain-sensing wiper system using an actual rain sensor, like every other car in the world uses, regardless of having AP at all or not.

Using AP for rain sensing was an "innovation" introduced with AP2.

 

[pdx3181]

AFAIK AP1 doesn't do rain sensing wipers at all- instead prior to AP2 all teslas had an independent rain-sensing wiper system using an actual rain sensor, like every other car in the world uses, regardless of having AP at all or not.

Using AP for rain sensing was an "innovation" introduced with AP2.

Apologies - I misunderstood the generations. Original post edited.

 

[jookyone]

AP1 cars here, lot of misinformation in this thread.

I'm not sure what mechanism is detecting rain (camera?) But both the X and S definitely have a rain sensing wiper system on AP1 cars. It's also listed in the manual (and with lines on the stalk), with two modes: low and high sensitivity.

From the manual:

When wipers are set to Auto, Model S detects whether or not it is raining. The frequency at which they wipe depends on how much rain is detected on the windshield. When wipers are set to high rain sensitivity, the wipers turn on when Model S detects a light mist.

As far as lane change it most definitely does not slam into cars. Between the two vehicles I'm sitting on 200k miles with no close calls, and it will not change lanes in the presence of a car. As best as I can tell, the ultrasonic sensors start showing "readings" at around 4-5 feet, with descriptive distance around 36 inches. Mobileye has infinitely better sophistication than Tesla's software, but became cost prohibitive. It recognizes 1,000 signs in 100 countries. Here's what Mobileye "sees" in AP1. Tesla's own software is not even close in terms of object recognition. Mobileye does not sell autonomous driving software it sells sensory software that supports cameras, radar, ultrasonic, and lidar. It is up to the manufacturer to program how the car will respond to the system output.

I will be keeping my AP1 cars until they have a version of AP2-3 that has the ability to read speed limit and other signs. That was the most annoying part of the AP2+ loaner that I was given. Funnily enough the salesman thought speed limit sign reading was GPS based, but not on AP1 which is camera based.

Cheers.

 

[Knightshade]

AP1 cars here, lot of misinformation in this thread.

I'm not sure what mechanism is detecting rain (camera?) But both the X and S definitely have a rain sensing wiper system on AP1 cars. It's also listed in the manual (and with lines on the stalk), with two modes: low and high sensitivity.

But that has literally nothing to do with AP

Cars from the same year without AP have that too.

It uses a normal rain sensor- not the AP camera.

As far as lane change it most definitely does not slam into cars. Between the two vehicles I'm sitting on 200k miles with no close calls, and it will not change lanes in the presence of a car. As best as I can tell, the ultrasonic sensors start showing "readings" at around 4-5 feet, with descriptive distance around 36 inches.

AP1 any chance blind spot(Tesla red lane) to come?

That's a thread on AP1 owners hoping to get some kinda blindspot warning- and an owners mentioning how terrible and inadequate the AP1 system is today.

Blind spot has always been bad and will continue to be bad in AP1 cars, non existent really I'd say as the ultrasonics don't detect something early enough and there obviously is no camera tech to detect anything.

I don't personally have enough time driving an AP1 car to say... but quite obviously short-range ultrasonics will be inferior to a system that has double-that-range ultrasonics plus cameras all around.

Mobileye has infinitely better sophistication than Tesla's software, but became cost prohibitive. It recognizes 1,000 signs in 100 countries. Here's what Mobileye "sees" in AP1. Tesla's own software is not even close in terms of object recognition. Mobileye does not sell autonomous driving software it sells sensory software that supports cameras, radar, ultrasonic, and lidar. It is up to the manufacturer to program how the car will respond to the system output.

I will be keeping my AP1 cars until they have a version of AP2-3 that has the ability to read speed limit and other signs. That was the most annoying part of the AP2+ loaner that I was given.

AP2.x is certainly capable of doing it.

The suggestion has been that since Mobileye holds the patent on reading signs Tesla can't legally turn that feature on.

Some others have suggested HW3 will get around the patent by having enough processing power to "read" the sign in a totally different way than the patent describes.[/QUOTE]

 

[GMan324]

AP1 does check for vehicles when you tell it to change lanes on AP. It just doesn’t have the range of AP2 because it uses sensors not a camera. I have told it to change lanes when a car was there to test it, and it won’t move until the car gets into view of the front camera, so saying it will slam into cars is completely wrong!

The auto wipers in AP1 cars are better, because it uses a separate rain sensor to determine when it’s raining not vision from a camera.

I have had an AP1 car for over a year and recently drove an AP 2.5 rental for a day and AP2.5 is definitely better (finally) at normal driving (especially when cresting hills), but there are still a few things AP1 does better (auto wipers, speed of lane changes, reading speed limit signs). AP2 could possibly do these better some day.

AP1 does us a GPS speed limit database, but it reads the signs to override it when appropriate. AP2 is stuck with the database, which is mostly right, but sucks when it’s wrong.

 

[jookyone]

Not trying to pick a fight, more informative for people who might be considering a used AP1 car.

But that has literally nothing to do with AP
Cars from the same year without AP have that too.
It uses a normal rain sensor- not the AP camera.

It has everything to do with AP. AP2+ cars are missing the rain sensor on the premise that a "smart" rain detection system with the camera is better, when in fact AP2+ cars have no alternative to rain sensing if they can't figure it out.

short-range ultrasonics will be inferior to a system that has double-that-range ultrasonics plus cameras all around.

AP2.x is certainly capable of doing it.

Completely agree that the ceiling is far higher with AP2+. What a car is capable of doing, especially in the area of ML/AI is completely irrelevant today. Why do you think the hardware has been upgraded 3 times? Simple things are not trivial for a developer to design a system to figure these things out. Not a single Tesla currently on the road, equipped with AP2+ can wipe windshields, read signs, or change lanes as well as an AP1 car. Hopefully all the promises of improvements, dare I say advancements, come sooner rather than later.

Mobileye holds the patent on reading signs Tesla can't legally turn that feature on

God I hope not, GPS based signage is not even a possible solution for autonomous driving. Construction comes to mind. Highways with digital readouts that change due to weather or lighting conditions (AP1 doesn't do digital signage, nor construction signs that aren't white).

Cheers.

 

[Marlin29485]

AP1 overall is no where near as efficient as AP2 or higher. I have read some of this non sense suggesting otherwise. I have owned an AP1 an AP 2.5 and AP 3.0. If you want to go into a ditch on a secondary road then choose AP1.

In regard to Auto Lane changing and Navigate on Auto Pilot. It is still pitiful at best...it often wants you to select lanes that are slower than the one you would choose.

Anyone reading.....do yourself a favor do not opt for FSD at this time. If you have a chance purchase a standard EAP without FSD.

 

[chillaban]

AP1 always does everything buttery smoothly and confidently. That doesn’t mean it’s right but on curvy city roads it routinely puts me into oncoming traffic or attempts to go onto a driveway acting like it did nothing wrong.

AP2.x tends to make more rapid movements that feel more unsettling especially when pushed to the limits.

 

[Knightshade]

Not trying to pick a fight, more informative for people who might be considering a used AP1 car.

It has everything to do with AP.

I mean, no, it factually does not.

Because older cars with no AP purchased at all still have rain sensing wipers.

Even cars from before AP existed did.

Because those cars used a dedicated rain sensor- not any of the autopilot HW.

AP2+ cars are missing the rain sensor on the premise that a "smart" rain detection system with the camera is better, when in fact AP2+ cars have no alternative to rain sensing if they can't figure it out.

Right. On AP2+ cars the system does have to do with AP hardware

On older cars, it doesn't- regardless of if they have AP or not.

 

[jookyone]

Ha, now you have just segmented my statement with some bs irrelevant to my claim. Since you are terrible at debate, and since the OP shared an opinion and didn't ask a question, I'll bite...

Given the statement: "It has everything to do with AP. AP2+ cars are missing the rain sensor..."

Please explain how a car with no rain sensor and only AP hardware can do rain detection with anything other than AP? The answer is that it can't. Which would make AP the only determinant in rain detection. In my opinion this is a huge problem as there is no redundant system to do rain detection if it is not solved with the AP hardware. Additionally how many compute cycles do you think are used to try and detect rain and tell the wipers to run? How many at highway speeds? Those cycles matter when a car is trying to drive itself (three hardware iterations later should give you a clue), the wipers are literally taking cycles away from AP. This is why it has everything to do with AP.

So yes, factually it does.

Before you write something else irrelevant, combative, and adds nothing to the discussion, here's a tutorial on
argumentative writing.

Cheers.