Aptera

[thimel]

These tricycles look like engineering college student projects. I don't think it is anywhere practical to spend upward $30k to save some $100 a year on electricity. On short-range trips there is no big advantage as the speeds are typically low, and on long-range trips there is not enough space an comfort. I wonder how this thing will drive in cross wind at a high speed on a wet highway. Sorry, I just don't get this thing other than a cool engineering demosnstration project.

The high efficiency is less about saving on the cost of electricity and more about having a high range with a small, cheap battery. It also allows faster charge rate when measured in miles added per hour.

 

[alexgr]

The high efficiency is less about saving on the cost of electricity and more about having a high range with a small, cheap battery. It also allows faster charge rate when measured in miles added per hour.

I understand this, and that's why I call it a student project. Unfortunately, the product does not seem to be very cheap, though it can be attributed to low volume now. Also, what's the point on having a high range in a tiny space, you can't take your family or your gear with you on a long trip. It's easier and faster to fly or take a train if you go long distance alone than riding this electric scooter. Sure, it can be popular for a small audience that now rides bikes cross-country, but not too much broader. A few thousands a year is probably the upper extend of the market unless they can make it cost less than $10k

 

[empiredown]

I understand this, and that's why I call it a student project. Unfortunately, the product does not seem to be very cheap, though it can be attributed to low volume now. Also, what's the point on having a high range in a tiny space, you can't take your family or your gear with you on a long trip. It's easier and faster to fly or take a train if you go long distance alone than riding this electric scooter. Sure, it can be popular for a small audience that now rides bikes cross-country, but not too much broader. A few thousands a year is probably the upper extend of the market unless they can make it cost less than $10k

How about you educate yourself, stop spreading false info/opinions, and see my referral code above when you change your mind!

Aptera Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Separately, why would you NOT want to be as efficient as you can be? 500 lbs of people / cargo and 25 cubic feet of cargo space isn't enough for you?

Over 4,000 orders in a couple weeks based on their guerrilla marketing/word-of-mouth adverts. Over 1.5 million publically raised with additional, undisclosed private funding. Working with Munro and Associates. I get it, I am sold on this thing. You aren't, but why post the above, mano?

Happy Holidays.

SS

 

[Watts_Up]

These tricycles look like engineering college student projects.
I don't think it is anywhere practical to spend upward $30k to save some $100 a year on electricity.
On short-range trips there is no big advantage as the speeds are typically low,
and on long-range trips there is not enough space an comfort.
I wonder how this thing will drive in cross wind at a high speed on a wet highway.
Sorry, I just don't get this thing other than a cool engineering demonstration project.

Stability is a main issue.
- It is certainly better than a motorcycle especially if you have a passenger, but
- In case of a pothole, there will be always one wheel hitting the hole, making the ride uncomfortable, and
- Taking a curve at high speed would have a risk of instability, such as the famous Moose test.

I followed with interests the arguments from Sandy Monroe, explaining that electronic can improve stability, to some extent.
I think the only real 'advantage' of developing a tricycle vehicle is currently the absence crash test requirements.
Sandy Monroe recommend adding seatbelts with included air bags, which is a good idea but might not be sufficient.

One of the drawback of this vehicle is taking basically the same real estate than a compact car.
I saw Sandy Monroe stacking them vertically, but this might not really worth the added complexity.
But if you have only a one car garage, you will have to make a choice between a car and a tricycle.

The bottom line is does customers would like such vehicle?
This cannot replace a real car, as driving on freeway at high speed among SUVs and trucks would be scary for the less.
So this type of vehicle would be good for local grocery trips or going to a commuter train station.
Basically this will be an upscale golf cart with doors.
Three wheels save weight, improving range, but affect stability.

If you have a home where parking is not an issue, having an additional tricycle or quadricycle could be an option.
There is potentially a market of those vehicles, I noticed some mini EVs such as the Citroen Ami or the Renault Twizy.
But looking at the not successful Indian Tata Nano, customer would prefer buy a used EV than a tricycle for the same price.

 

[alexgr]

Stability is a main issue.
- Taking a curve at high speed would have a risk of instability, such as the famous Moose test.

By the way, tricycle is less stable in a turn than a bicycle. You can't change the angle on a tricycle, though that would help but it would be very expensive to make such suspension.

So this type of vehicle would be good for local grocery trips or going to a commuter train station.
Basically this will be an upscale golf cart with doors.

Yes, and then what is the long range for?
To me, the priorities of this vehicle are messed up.

 

[Watts_Up]

By the way, tricycle is less stable in a turn than a bicycle.
You can't change the angle on a tricycle, though that would help but it would be very expensive to make such suspension.

You are right, unless there are some gravels, rain, or snow, and in this case a bicycle or motorcycle will slide.

However a tricycle is way more stable when braking than a bicycle or motorcycle.

I had bad experiences in all of those situations and my knees, ankle, and ribs, still have some remaining scars.

Anyway, bicycles and motorcycles don't offer any protection from other vehicles so this is a different category of transportation.

 

[alexgr]

How about you educate yourself, stop spreading false info/opinions, and see my referral code above when you change your mind!

Aptera Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Thank you. I am surprised to see they claim high stability at crosswinds. Interesting to see details some time in the future.

Separately, why would you NOT want to be as efficient as you can be? 500 lbs of people / cargo and 25 cubic feet of cargo space isn't enough for you?

For me? Maybe. For me and my family? No.
If I ever want to travel to remote locations, even alone, 25 ft^3 of cargo is absolutely insufficient: I need a stove, gas bottles, food, water, a tent, cloth and gear, that is before a boat. You got a picture. So, I have a CT pre-order.

I don't understand the point of going alone long distance when I can't really go off road with plenty of gear. Planes are still available.

Over 4,000 orders in a couple weeks based on their guerrilla marketing/word-of-mouth adverts. Over 1.5 million publically raised with additional, undisclosed private funding. Working with Munro and Associates. I get it, I am sold on this thing. You aren't, but why post the above, mano?

Happy Holidays.

SS

An argumentum ad populum does not work for me. Most people believe in god, you know.
Even if they get 4 million orders, I still don't understand the utility of the thing. It might work for some, for you maybe, but for general public? I am very skeptical. Because of my skepticism (assholism?) I've been banned from a mach-e forum in 24 hours after joining, and I have about 0 friends. So, here I am, a forum troll loser who questions about everything that doesn't smell right for me.

Happy whatever holidays.

 

[alexgr]

You are right, unless there are some gravels, and in this case a bicycle or motorcycle will slide.

But a tricycle is way more stable when braking than a bicycle or motorcycle.

I had bad experiences in all of those situations and my knees, ankle, and ribs, still have some remaining scars.

I agree! I had my arm broken after bicycle braking went wrong.

Ban Bikes, ban trikes!

 

[wws]

With the Very Heavy battery pack mounted as low as possible, and between the wheels, it should be pretty stable.

 

[Watts_Up]

Yes, and then what is the long range for?
To me, the priorities of this vehicle are messed up.

I think that there is a market for a shrink mini ultra efficient Model 3,
about the size of a Fiat 500, but more with the shape of the VW XR1.

Putting the two front seat with a slightly offset so the two shoulders don't touch each other
and removing the central console would allow to keep the car as narrow as possible
to improve efficiency. A two doors hatchback with 2 seats, or 2 + 2children would be a good option.

I think providing a descent range for a city car (250 miles or 400 km) is necessary.
I would not be always possible to recharge every night a city car when your only option
is to park in the street, so charging once a week would be more practical.
Also a city car might be used occasionally for some short weekend trips.

One example is the BMW i3 which as a 150 miles or 250 kilometer range
that the Los Angeles Police bought for their employees but nobody drove them.
The starting price of $45k and 150 miles of range were not very attractive.

I think that a successful electric city car should cost about $20k+ and have 250 miles of range.

 

[the dude]

The Aptera isn't some kind of rolling death trap, there is a good video on YouTube of jay Leno driving the original Aptera, its stable and safe at highway speeds, the new version will be better in almost every way, for example it should have a lower centre of gravity due to the hub motors. I get that its not a car for everyone, but there is a market for it

Also if Aptera ever make a 4 wheel car, I would expect it to look something like the XL1, real pity VW only made 250 of them

 

[Watts_Up]

The Aptera isn't some kind of rolling death trap, there is a good video on YouTube of jay Leno driving the original Aptera,
its stable and safe at highway speeds, the new version will be better in almost every way, for example it should have
a lower centre of gravity due to the hub motors. I get that its not a car for everyone, but there is a market for it

Also if Aptera ever make a 4 wheel car, I would expect it to look something like the XL1, real pity VW only made 250 of them

A Giro version could be also a possible option:

 

[bhtooefr]

On what ever angle I look at the Aptera, I cannot stop scratching my head !!!
I don't understand the rational of having this strange shape with separate wheels.

For me the VW XL1 with a drag coefficient (Cd) of 0.159 similar to the Aptera drag coefficient of 0.15
(the Model 3 has a drag coefficient (Cd) of just 0.23) has a nicer and practical design.

The XL1 is also a four-wheeler and therefore can have a much narrower front track while still being stable.

Aptera could've gone for inboard wheels and maybe could've faired things to keep the Cd down, but would've massively increased frontal area, and therefore increased drag.

That said, it's also worth noting that Edison2 went for outboard wheels with a four-wheeler, as it let them optimize the Cd of their main shape (they also did a compact in-wheel suspension and portal gearboxes on the drive wheels, however, to optimize aerodynamics, at the expense of suspension dynamics and potentially drivetrain efficiency).

 

[Takumi]

I see a lot of Tesla cues. Makes me feel like they're really working with Tesla too. Hopefully, they follow Tesla's lead and work with Pobst or another pro driver as well.

 

[Takumi]

 

[jsmay311]

Is Aptera Using Tesla's Charging Tech: 1,000-Mile, Supercharge-Capable EV?

Saw this on insideev. Apparently this vehicle has the Tesla port (2:55). They speculate they may have access to the supercharger network. Unknown if this is a mistake or not.

Just to circle back to the stuff about the charge port and the video showing a Tesla connector...

I stumbled on a long-running Q&A thread with the CEO(s) on a site where they've done grassroots fundraising and answered all sorts of questions going back to Aug 2019. Invest in Aptera Motors : The world's first Never Charge solar vehicle! | Wefunder

At various points they've discussed the charge port. I'll summary the answers below.

TL;DR: they don't commit 100% to anything, but CCS is mentioned a lot. (Emphasis added.) But no comments on the topic since after that video dropped.

• 9/4/19: Q: "It would be interesting, if Aptera team considers CCS vs. CHAdeMO?"
  A: "Short answer, yes. We'll be using the CCS."
• 10/17/19: "We will utilize J1772 with charging up to 100 miles per hour and CCS with charging up to 600 mile per hour."
• 11/1/19: "We anticipate being able to take 50KW through CCS which gives you 500 miles of charge per hour."
• 1/2/20: "You can charge at home off a 110v outlet or via J1772 or CCS at the many thousands of roadside and community chargers."
• 2/16/20: "We will have 220v charging and DC "Fast" charging options likely with the standard CCS plug. But we are still working to sort our vendors for these components and still have some integration to do with our power systems."
• 3/1/20: "We will also likely have a DC port for home connection and quick-charging. But we haven't fully worked this out yet."
• 10/14/20: "We are talking to people in the charging world now and it does seem like CCS will be our path. But we haven’t committed to anything as of now."

 

[Olds442]

i don't believe they have announced where they are sourcing batteries from.

i reserved one, but have my doubts about their claims as many here do.

400 mile variant, black on black, safetypilot and added hood solar panels. we'll see.

 

[32x20]

I’m hopeful for them. I have a M3 LR for family trips, but for my wife’s commute to work (<10mi/day) it seems ideal . If you commute 10-20 mi during the week and take a longer trip or two on the weekend the bigger batteries makes sense. For family trips it’s out, obviously, but for daily commuting duty for the parent NOT doing kid drop offs it seems great. And, really, as a quick weekend canyon carver it seems fun. Quicker than a lot of the ‘open’ gas tricycles and green.

Their engineering claims don’t seem outlandish. The real question is: does their model become ‘overcome by events’ in battery and/or solar cell tech. Seems unlikely in the next 5 years.

 

[leonar40]

I'm shocked to see this thing back. I've been following EVs since before the Gen 1 Volt came out. I watched all the promise and failure of the Aptera. When they went bankrupt, I saw the company literally crush the remaining shells with a forklift as a middle finger to everyone. I hope this new version can do better, but there is no way I'd put any money towards it.

 

[voyager]

Stability is a main issue.
- It is certainly better than a motorcycle especially if you have a passenger, but
- In case of a pothole, there will be always one wheel hitting the hole, making the ride uncomfortable, and
- Taking a curve at high speed would have a risk of instability, such as the famous Moose test.

One of the drawback of this vehicle is taking basically the same real estate than a compact car.
I saw Sandy Monroe stacking them vertically, but this might not really worth the added complexity.
But if you have only a one car garage, you will have to make a choice between a car and a tricycle.

The bottom line is does customers would like such vehicle?
This cannot replace a real car, as driving on freeway at high speed among SUVs and trucks would be scary for the less.
So this type of vehicle would be good for local grocery trips or going to a commuter train station.
Basically this will be an upscale golf cart with doors.
Three wheels save weight, improving range, but affect stability.

If you have a home where parking is not an issue, having an additional tricycle or quadricycle could be an option.
There is potentially a market of those vehicles, I noticed some mini EVs such as the Citroen Ami or the Renault Twizy.
But looking at the not successful Indian Tata Nano, customer would prefer buy a used EV than a tricycle for the same price.

Good points:
-safer than a motorcycle
-lightweighting may also form a bonus
-may be an extra mode of transport between the car, which has become bigger and bigger, and the bicycle.

Two examples of 'in-between' vehicles. The Dutch mono-seater LEF
This micro EV is a tiny electric vehicle designed for cruising the city

and the Dutch 1+1 Carver.

Drawbacks:
-most three-wheelers have the same footprint as a hatchback;
the 1+1 tandem-seater Elio has the same footprint as a Ford Focus;
its outriggers are prone to shearing off, the Aptera's ditto
-not the same crash protection as that of a small car.

Reason why Arcimoto bought Tilting Motor Works, no doubt.
Three-wheelers' front track can only be kept narrow if they lean during cornering to offset lateral forces.
IMO, three-wheelers' 1+1 seat capacity at best does form a problem too.
And the more people sit upright in the vehicle like in the Arcimoto, the higher the CoG and the more it needs to lean whilst cornering.