Arbitration: 90d rapid battery degradation

[wemetzger]

My two cents...
It was probably sold to the original buyer at 270. Whether it was 270 or 294, it probably doesn't make a difference. Even if it had the better Model 3 warranty of 30% degradation, this is still not even close to that. I mean it sucks, but this stuff is part of the danger of buying used. If I had bought it, I would have not expected this, and especially if I needed the range, I would be pissed. BUt I don't think expecting Tesla to fix it, or calling them liars and selling their stock is going to make the situation any better, or make you feel better.

I think you have two main ways to proceed: 1) Sell it back, take the loss. 2) It is still under warranty right? Drive that battery into the ground until it dies. #2 is obviously dangerous, because if it stops degrading, then you just are beating up your own asset.

 

[mvotb]

A lot of good info here
Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

I believe one poster was told by service, that the standard being used by Tesla was 10% below average for that vehicle. I think they are trying to back peddle even on that standard now. Should be some very relevant info coming from the Feds probe, and discovery in the class action suit.

 

[cduzz]

A lot of good info here
Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

I believe one poster was told by service, that the standard being used by Tesla was 10% below average for that vehicle. I think they are trying to back peddle even on that standard now. Should be some very relevant info coming from the Feds probe, and discovery in the class action suit.

The issues with that thread are around the original chemistry batteries such as in the 85/85d generation cars.

The first generation of the 90 series cars reputedly has a different issue with battery degradation; those with the P90D/P90DL seem to be most affected.

You say you can only drive 180 miles on a full battery? Under what circumstances? If I drive back and forth to work all week long without charging and put 180 miles on my car, I probably would run down to 10% as well, even though my car has a stated capacity of "277" miles when full. With my car, at least, city driving is an enormous hog. The car can say that I've got 200 miles left but I can't put even 100 miles on the car, when city driving and letting the car cold soak every day. (10 miles to work and back).

When I head out on the highway lookin for adventure the car easily meets the stated range -- gauge says "270 miles" and I can drive 200 miles and the car has 60-90 miles of range left on it.

So -- suggestions:

• Set battery gauge to percent not distance
• Drive around with the energy display -- it will tell you what it thinks your capacity should be when you get to a destination and your observed mileage
• verify you've got your tires at the right air pressure
• be suspicious if your energy consumption is absurdly high; city driving around here with the heater on and hard acceleration I see 400kwh/mile (or whatever the unit is) or more when the car's "rated" consumption is 300; that has a huge impact on range
• Observe how much power you lose overnight.

 

[evalst2018]

90 pack version 1 is known to be flaky, as they added too much silicon.

The fact of the matter is Tesla is talking about 1 million mile battery, and how great their battery tech really is. This is a bunch of baloney. Even the tesloop car lost 22% of range.

The point is not that the battery lost capacity, it is that Tesla is willing spreading false truths about their battery tech. End of the day, half of it belongs to Panasonic. There is way too much kool aid being served. I know this hurts a lot of Tesla fanboys, but ultimately with more miles you will see degradation based on which pack you have. The 90 packs are notorious. Model 3 may hold up much better.

 

[ucmndd]

I know this hurts a lot of Tesla fanboys, but ultimately with more miles you will see degradation based on which pack you have. The 90 packs are notorious. Model 3 may hold up much better.

Degradation is a fact of life. Of course you'll see degradation with mileage.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the 3, the battery/charging forum over there is riddled with people moaning about real or perceived degradation. That said, Tesla's new battery warranty for the 3 at least sets an expectation in this regard from the beginning - the floor is 30% degradation in the first 125k miles.

At 100k miles I'm approaching 13% degradation from new on my S75. More than I was anticipating? Yes. All that unreasonable compared to any other EV on the market? Not at all.

 

[evalst2018]

Degradation is a fact of life. Of course you'll see degradation with mileage.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the 3, the battery/charging forum over there is riddled with people moaning about real or perceived degradation. That said, Tesla's new battery warranty for the 3 at least sets an expectation in this regard from the beginning - the floor is 30% degradation in the first 125k miles.

At 100k miles I'm approaching 13% degradation from new on my S75. More than I was anticipating? Yes. All that unreasonable compared to any other EV on the market? Not at all.

Ive owned 2 other egolfs...at 50k miles did not see this level of degradation.

 

[ahhlun]

Hmm...it does appear the 2015 90D had a rated range of 270 (at least according to FuelEconomy.gov). Really makes you wonder what changed between the '15 and '16 to improve the range so much.

Compare Side-by-Side

But if you just click on a used 90d on tesla.com, you see range of 294.

Case closed? That's the expected range

 

[ahhlun]

The issues with that thread are around the original chemistry batteries such as in the 85/85d generation cars.

The first generation of the 90 series cars reputedly has a different issue with battery degradation; those with the P90D/P90DL seem to be most affected.

You say you can only drive 180 miles on a full battery? Under what circumstances? If I drive back and forth to work all week long without charging and put 180 miles on my car, I probably would run down to 10% as well, even though my car has a stated capacity of "277" miles when full. With my car, at least, city driving is an enormous hog. The car can say that I've got 200 miles left but I can't put even 100 miles on the car, when city driving and letting the car cold soak every day. (10 miles to work and back).

When I head out on the highway lookin for adventure the car easily meets the stated range -- gauge says "270 miles" and I can drive 200 miles and the car has 60-90 miles of range left on it.

So -- suggestions:

• Set battery gauge to percent not distance
• Drive around with the energy display -- it will tell you what it thinks your capacity should be when you get to a destination and your observed mileage
• verify you've got your tires at the right air pressure
• be suspicious if your energy consumption is absurdly high; city driving around here with the heater on and hard acceleration I see 400kwh/mile (or whatever the unit is) or more when the car's "rated" consumption is 300; that has a huge impact on range
• Observe how much power you lose overnight.

Surprised at this. Usually Tesla are efficient at slow speed but inefficient at highway speed above 60miles/hr

 

[evalst2018]

Ive owned 2 other egolfs...at 50k miles did not see this level of degradation.

This is interesting..I made this statement 2 months ago...and I found this data below comparing degradation on Tesla vs VW. Most likely because most EVs do not charge at 72Kw,120Kw+, 250Kw...fast charging basically frys your battery

Geotab - EV Battery Degradation

 

[ahkahn]

FWIW, my 90D has tanked recently. I've got 70k miles on my car, not even 3 years old, and I'm seeing now 13% degradation.

And there is no way my car gets anywhere close to the rated range. I drive 30 miles and 60 comes off the estimate.

 

[cduzz]

90d here also; pre-facelift V1 pack, so "288" is my EPA rating; I presently still get 277.

I've also seen the "15 mile drive / 40 miles melt off the stated range" issue and have been tinkering with various settings, at least in Boston cold weather. In the fall with no climate control I easily met the range guestimates from the computer, or sometimes beat them if I turned off the AC, even on short (8-10 mile) city driving.

Although I've read that "range mode" is actually no good for short trips in cold weather, I tried it anyhow and it did seem to make a big difference. It is currently a data set of one, but still an interesting observation.

 

[cduzz]

90d here also; pre-facelift V1 pack, so "288" is my EPA rating; I presently still get 277.

I've also seen the "15 mile drive / 40 miles melt off the stated range" issue and have been tinkering with various settings, at least in Boston cold weather. In the fall with no climate control I easily met the range guestimates from the computer, or sometimes beat them if I turned off the AC, even on short (8-10 mile) city driving.

Although I've read that "range mode" is actually no good for short trips in cold weather, I tried it anyhow and it did seem to make a big difference. It is currently a data set of one, but still an interesting observation.

At the risk of seeming like I enjoy talking to myself on the internet....

Drove to work today with range mode on and no shore power over night; the car had no regen for the entire 12 mile drive until the very end when it had one little bitty green line.

The power consumption was much lower according to the energy meter.

So ... range mode it is from now on, at least until the weather warms up.

I have to wonder if constant heat cycling of the battery is good or bad for it. My intuition says that it probably isn't great to heat something up to operating temperatures and then immediately let it cool back down and I've read that lithium batteries are just fine with discharging when cold (though not quite as efficient) -- they can't be *charged* when frozen but are otherwise unaffected by cold.

Anyone have experience with just leaving range mode on (specifically on an antique S and V10 software)?

 

[drklain]

Surprised at this. Usually Tesla are efficient at slow speed but inefficient at highway speed above 60miles/hr

You are correct, at slow speed the car is more efficient than high speed (no aerodynamic drag to deal with and drag increases as a square of speed), but city stop and go driving is the most inefficient because you are constantly overcoming the stop and accelerating to moving. watt hours/mile skyrockets under those conditions....

 

[ahkahn]

You are correct, at slow speed the car is more efficient than high speed (no aerodynamic drag to deal with and drag increases as a square of speed), but city stop and go driving is the most inefficient because you are constantly overcoming the stop and accelerating to moving. watt hours/mile skyrockets under those conditions....

I believe I read somewhere that the most efficient speed was something like 47mph.

 

[drklain]

Depends on how you define efficient. The folks who have done hypermiling tests in Teslas and got massive amounts of range (nearly double the rated capacity) rant the car at something like 20 miles an hour and drove continuously, never stopping the car. That gets you the LOWEST watt hours per mile (equivalent of lowest gallons per mile). 47 MPH is most definitely NOT the lowest power utilization of the car, it is just a speed at which the aerodynamic drag has not become significant as a factor affecting energy required/used to achieve the speed. Above about 50 mph, the drag factor begins to noticeably increase and affect range.

 

[ucmndd]

FWIW, my 90D has tanked recently. I've got 70k miles on my car, not even 3 years old, and I'm seeing now 13% degradation.

Math check, 298 to 266 is barely 11%.

For what it’s worth, I have an early 75 approaching 100k and I’m at basically the same, ~12%.

 

[kimvellore]

How is the arbitration coming along?. From my experience the managing counsel RM will keep ignoring you hoping you will go away.

 

[ahkahn]

Math check, 298 to 266 is barely 11%.

For what it’s worth, I have an early 75 approaching 100k and I’m at basically the same, ~12%.

I believe the 13% comes from highest to lowest, not start to finish. I agree with the 11% for start to finish. I've attached my TeslaFi breakdown...

I'd love to see Teslafi aggregate the battery data so we can all see where we rank. Does anyone know their username on here?

 

[evalst2018]

How is the arbitration coming along?. From my experience the managing counsel RM will keep ignoring you hoping you will go away.

Arbitration dead. The so-called 3rd party organization that sent the lawyer is paid for by the auto manufacturers. So they sit there and ignore your evidence.

Again, what is being disputed is not the degradation, it's the false advertising.

 

[evalst2018]

Update: My 90d v1 pack has continued to degrade. Now only charging to 198 miles at 80% after 72k miles of driving.