Arbitration decision of my PCS dispute

[JayPaul]

Being someone who works on my vehicles (but not my Tesla), I was interested to see what was involved in replacing the PCS module. I can see a very valid argument in saying it is part of the battery. Here is a video I was watching, where a gentleman bought a wrecked. model 3 and removes the battery. He talks about all the components.

I set this video to start right where you can see the PCS modules' cover. It is under the sliver hood/box with the orange connector plugged in on top. You have to remove the battery to get to it, then remove a cover that covers all the electronics on the back of the battery, then finally remove the silver cover for the PCS to get to it:

If you pause it at 39:16, you will see the PCS cover:

 

[MP3Mike]

You have to remove the battery to get to it,

No, you do not have to remove the battery. The Tesla service manual says that it takes about 2 hours to replace the PCS: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Mode...UID-B151A0A4-8E51-4C1B-B987-03B1637717F9.html (It even has a video that shows an overview of the process.)

 

[JayPaul]

No, you do not have to remove the battery. The Tesla service manual says that it takes about 2 hours to replace the PCS: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Mode...UID-B151A0A4-8E51-4C1B-B987-03B1637717F9.html (It even has a video that shows an overview of the process.)

Your link indicates I do not have access to that file.

 

[father_of_6]

I can see a very valid argument in saying it is part of the battery.

That's the point of contention though. Tesla can just say, "that wiring harness isn't the battery, it's just connected to the battery", or "that cobalt isn't the battery, it's just a material used to stabilize the battery".

I think instead of arbitration, two men with white gloves should slap each other in the face with said (empty) gloves in a round-robin fashion until someone cries "uncle".

 

[JayPaul]

No, you do not have to remove the battery. The Tesla service manual says that it takes about 2 hours to replace the PCS: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Mode...UID-B151A0A4-8E51-4C1B-B987-03B1637717F9.html (It even has a video that shows an overview of the process.)

Can it be fully access from under the rear seat bottom? Sorry, I can't see your link or videos. From watching that video I posted, I assumed the big outer cover wouldn't come off while still under the car.

 

[Keninblaine]

No, you do not have to remove the battery. The Tesla service manual says that it takes about 2 hours to replace the PCS: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Mode...UID-B151A0A4-8E51-4C1B-B987-03B1637717F9.html (It even has a video that shows an overview of the process.)

Website said I don't have access to that file. I presume the PCS is under the back seat cushion and rear portion of trunk floor?

 

[MP3Mike]

Website said I don't have access to that file. I presume the PCS is under the back seat cushion and rear portion of trunk floor?

You have to signup for a free year of the Tesla service manuals.

The PCS is just under the bottom rear seat cushion. It doesn't go into the trunk.

 

[gearchruncher]

If anyone wants to fight this, you really need to go about it systematically. The first place to start has to be the written warranty for the battery. Which is this (with a bunch of capacity and fire stuff removed):

Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty
The Tesla lithium-ion battery (the “Battery”) and Drive Unit are extremely sophisticated powertrain components designed to withstand extreme driving conditions. You can rest easy knowing that Tesla’s state-of-the-art Battery and Drive Unit are backed by this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty, which covers the repair or replacement of any malfunctioning or defective Battery or Drive Unit, subject to the limitations described below.

If your Battery or Drive Unit requires warranty repair, Tesla will repair the unit, or replace it with a new, reconditioned or remanufactured part at the sole discretion of Tesla. The warranty replacement may not restore the vehicle to a "like new" condition, but when replacing a Battery, Tesla will ensure that the energy capacity of the replacement Battery is at least equal to that of the original Battery before the failure occurred while taking into consideration other factors, including the age and mileage of the vehicle.

Your vehicle's Battery and Drive Unit are covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty for a period of:

Model 3 with Standard or Mid-Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period.

Model 3 with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period.

Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle or ignoring active vehicle warnings or service notifications), a collision or accident (excluding from Battery fires as specified above), or the servicing or opening of the Battery or Drive Unit by non-Tesla or non-certified personnel, is not covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty.

Notice the warranty specifically covers the battery UNIT. In fact, the warranty on the battery is void if you service or open the UNIT. Which you have to do to replace the PCS. (Side note, pretty funny Tesla tells you ignoring warnings can cause denial of warranty, yet they hide the PCS warning from you so you won't notice you have something that needs to be repaired under warranty)

Now let's look at how Tesla tracks the "battery" in their own parts catalog:

It's a battery "assembly." It is not possible to buy a battery without buying the PCS- notice how the batteries carry terms like 1PH - that means 1 phase, which is defined by the PCS inside. So if Tesla does replace the battery under warranty, they will replace the PCS. But if the PCS fails, that's not part of the battery warranty? That's some circular logic.

But wait, doesn't Tesla sell the PCS individually? Yes, they do. And in their catalog, it's specifically under the category called "HV battery electrical COMPONENTS"

Which makes the PCS clearly a component of the battery, yet the warranty covers the battery UNIT, which any reasonable person would consider to be a group or components. There are a bunch of components in there that would completely prevent the car from working- like contactors, busbars, and fuses. Is Tesla going to argue that if a contactor fails, that's not part of the battery either because it's in the penthouse? What if the PCS fails in a way that it causes the whole car to shutdown, such as a 12V DC/DC conversion failure?

So- Tesla won't sell a battery without a PCS inside, yet according to Tesla it is not part of the battery "unit"? And if you want to repair the PCS yourself, you must open the battery- which voids your battery warranty. Which means only Tesla can service your car to maintain your warranty, which would be illegal under the Moss-Magnuson act. An yes, Tesla considers the penthouse part of the battery, the cover for the penthouse is literally listed as a HV battery component:

This seems like a clear slam dunk if you took it to any court with a well laid out set of facts- and all you need to do that is Tesla's own published warranty and their parts catalog to prove they are denying you coverage on something they themselves internally define as an assembly. Is Tesla really going to succeed at convincing a court that a battery assembly is different from a battery unit? Especially with Contra proferentem- which means that when contract terms are ambiguous, courts find against the author of the contract.

I hope that people that do get charged for a PCS that is supposedly not under warranty take this to Small Claims or arbitration.

 

[Keninblaine]

If anyone wants to fight this, you really need to go about it systematically. The first place to start has to be the written warranty for the battery. Which is this (with a bunch of capacity and fire stuff removed):








Notice the warranty specifically covers the battery UNIT. In fact, the warranty on the battery is void if you service or open the UNIT. Which you have to do to replace the PCS.

Now let's look at how Tesla tracks the "battery" in their own parts catalog:
View attachment 907118

It's a battery "assembly." It is not possible to buy a battery without buying the PCS- notice how the batteries carry terms like 1PH - that means 1 phase, which is defined by the PCS inside. So if Tesla does replace the battery under warranty, they will replace the PCS. But if the PCS fails, that's not part of the battery warranty? That's some circular logic.

But wait, doesn't Tesla sell the PCS individually? Yes, they do. And in their catalog, it's specifically under the category called "HV battery electrical COMPONENTS"
View attachment 907123
Which makes the PCS clearly a component of the battery, yet the warranty covers the battery UNIT, which any reasonable person would consider to be a group or components.

So- Tesla won't sell a battery without a PCS inside, yet according to Tesla it is not part of the battery "unit"? And if you want to repair the PCS yourself, you must open the battery- which voids your battery warranty. Which means only Tesla can service your car to maintain your warranty, which would be illegal under the Moss-Magnuson act. An yes, Tesla considers the penthouse part of the battery, the cover for the penthouse is literally listed as a HV battery component:
View attachment 907124

This seems like a clear slam dunk if you took it to any court with a well laid out set of facts- and all you need to do that is Tesla's own published warranty and their parts catalog to prove they are denying you coverage on something they themselves internally define as an assembly. Is Tesla really going to succeed at convincing a court that a battery assembly is different from a battery unit? Especially with Contra proferentem- which means that when contract terms are ambiguous, courts find against the author of the contract.

I hope that people that do get charged for a PCS that is supposedly not under warranty take this to Small Claims or arbitration.

Good stuff. Unfortunately, the OP did take it to arbitration, and lost.

 

[gearchruncher]

Good stuff. Unfortunately, the OP did take it to arbitration, and lost.

Here are the arguments the OP made in their arbitration presentation, which I do not believe are as compelling as my analysis. The OP even said this earlier in the thread when I brought up the service manual descriptions before.

I wish I had found this info to include in my arguments for the arbitrator, as I think it further bolsters my case.

Plus, arbitration is not precedent setting, and you can always go to small claims. People should not just give in to Tesla's position just because one person didn't have success.

 

[father_of_6]

@gearchruncher - you're a boss. When mine fails, you're hired (pro-bono, of course). Or at least I'll be using your post verbatim.

 

[derotam]

If anyone wants to fight this, you really need to go about it systematically. The first place to start has to be the written warranty for the battery. Which is this (with a bunch of capacity and fire stuff removed):








Notice the warranty specifically covers the battery UNIT. In fact, the warranty on the battery is void if you service or open the UNIT. Which you have to do to replace the PCS. (Side note, pretty funny Tesla tells you ignoring warnings can cause denial of warranty, yet they hide the PCS warning from you so you won't notice you have something that needs to be repaired under warranty)

Now let's look at how Tesla tracks the "battery" in their own parts catalog:
View attachment 907118

It's a battery "assembly." It is not possible to buy a battery without buying the PCS- notice how the batteries carry terms like 1PH - that means 1 phase, which is defined by the PCS inside. So if Tesla does replace the battery under warranty, they will replace the PCS. But if the PCS fails, that's not part of the battery warranty? That's some circular logic.

But wait, doesn't Tesla sell the PCS individually? Yes, they do. And in their catalog, it's specifically under the category called "HV battery electrical COMPONENTS"
View attachment 907123
Which makes the PCS clearly a component of the battery, yet the warranty covers the battery UNIT, which any reasonable person would consider to be a group or components. There are a bunch of components in there that would completely prevent the car from working- like contactors, busbars, and fuses. Is Tesla going to argue that if a contactor fails, that's not part of the battery either because it's in the penthouse? What if the PCS fails in a way that it causes the whole car to shutdown, such as a 12V DC/DC conversion failure?

So- Tesla won't sell a battery without a PCS inside, yet according to Tesla it is not part of the battery "unit"? And if you want to repair the PCS yourself, you must open the battery- which voids your battery warranty. Which means only Tesla can service your car to maintain your warranty, which would be illegal under the Moss-Magnuson act. An yes, Tesla considers the penthouse part of the battery, the cover for the penthouse is literally listed as a HV battery component:
View attachment 907124

This seems like a clear slam dunk if you took it to any court with a well laid out set of facts- and all you need to do that is Tesla's own published warranty and their parts catalog to prove they are denying you coverage on something they themselves internally define as an assembly. Is Tesla really going to succeed at convincing a court that a battery assembly is different from a battery unit? Especially with Contra proferentem- which means that when contract terms are ambiguous, courts find against the author of the contract.

I hope that people that do get charged for a PCS that is supposedly not under warranty take this to Small Claims or arbitration.

Sorry but just to be nitpicky about some terminology here and not taking sides one way or another... Nothing refers to a Battery UNIT"...there is the "Battery" and there is the "Drive Unit". Yes, by english grammar you can possibly infer "UNIT" based on other phrasing BUT Tesla actually defines the "Battery" in that warranty as "The Tesla lithium-ion battery (the “Battery”)".

It would be interesting to see an actual court decide on this issue.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Can it be fully access from under the rear seat bottom? Sorry, I can't see your link or videos. From watching that video I posted, I assumed the big outer cover wouldn't come off while still under the car.

Yes, AFAIK it can be replaced just from the rear seat bottom just like previous Tesla onboard chargers (OBCs). That is Tesla's argument, that it is the equivalent to OBCs (and/or DC-DC), which traditionally is not considered part of the battery in EVs. It basically is separately replaceable.

The sticking point is that for ease of manufacturing/service, for the Model 3/Y they have put it as part of the "battery unit" and sell it as such when you replace the battery, thus you have this dispute.

 

[gearchruncher]

Sorry but just to be nitpicky about some terminology here and not taking sides one way or another... Nothing refers to a Battery UNIT"

Sort of true, but there is also this where Tesla clearly joins them and makes it clear what they mean:

If your Battery or Drive Unit requires warranty repair, Tesla will repair the unit, or replace it with a new, reconditioned or remanufactured part at the sole discretion of Tesla.

Tesla clearly refers to both as units when they talk about what they will repair. If you want to argue that that the battery is not a unit, then you just identified that Tesla doesn't warranty the battery at all, as Tesla will only repair units, not "battery or unit". They also alternate language between "unit" and "part" in this sentence, and the battery is sold as a single part number which includes the PCS. Again.... Tesla wrote this language so Contra proferentem applies if it's ambiguous.

Tesla has a ton of exclusions in their battery warranty about capacity, damage, ignoring warnings, etc that void the battery warranty. If they really mean that they don't cover components in the penthouse, they should call this out explicitly, rather than arguing that components which come whenever you purchase a battery, and which cannot be replaced without voiding the battery warranty are not part of the "battery." And then you could go after them for violating Magnuson-Moss!

 

[derotam]

Sort of true, but there is also this where Tesla clearly joins them and makes it clear what they mean:

Tesla clearly refers to both as units when they talk about what they will repair. If you want to argue that that the battery is not a unit, then you just identified that Tesla doesn't warranty the battery at all, as Tesla will only repair units, not "battery or unit". They also alternate language between "unit" and "part" in this sentence, and the battery is sold as a single part number which includes the PCS. Again.... Tesla wrote this language so Contra proferentem applies if it's ambiguous.

Tesla has a ton of exclusions in their battery warranty about capacity, damage, ignoring warnings, etc that void the battery warranty. If they really mean that they don't cover components in the penthouse, they should call this out explicitly, rather than arguing that components which come whenever you purchase a battery, and which cannot be replaced without voiding the battery warranty are not part of the "battery." And then you could go after them for violating Magnuson-Moss!

Hey I see all the same things you see and until it is tested in a court of law then people will be paying for their own PCS failures. Being on that Jury could be a nightmare too depending on how the evidence and jury instructions are given.

 

[gearchruncher]

Hey I see all the same things you see and until it is tested in a court of law then people will be paying for their own PCS failures. Being on that Jury could be a nightmare too depending on how the evidence and jury instructions are given.

Until we gather enough people for a class action, nobody is going to court with a Jury over a $1500 repair. This is fully in the domain of small claims, which doesn't have a jury, just convincing a judge.

Maybe in a few years when lots of cars are out of warranty, and a lot of people are identified that had to pay, it will make sense for someone to file a class action and get Tesla to stop charging and refund all the repairs. People can also file with NHTSA and propose it as a safety hazard and see if they can pressure them to get Tesla to change the policy.

To be clear- I can't do any of this as Tesla repaired mine under the 4 year warranty, so someone else would need to drive it.

 

[davewill]

To be clear- I can't do any of this as Tesla repaired mine under the 4 year warranty, so someone else would need to drive it.

Yet. There's still time for it to go bad again after the 4 year warranty.

 

[JayPaul]

I haven't picked up my car yet. But successfully replaced at $0 since I'm still under warranty. From the invoice I have the following:

Part: ASY,PCS,48A-CD,1PH,MDL3(113555804-A)

They also had to replace 5 bolts, and 1 Quantity of Coolant, Ethylene Glycol, 50/50.

They listed their hourly rate at USD: 205

 

[Keninblaine]

I haven't picked up my car yet. But successfully replaced at $0 since I'm still under warranty. From the invoice I have the following:

Part: ASY,PCS,48A-CD,1PH,MDL3(113555804-A)

They also had to replace 5 bolts, and 1 Quantity of Coolant, Ethylene Glycol, 50/50.

They listed their hourly rate at USD: 205

Wow. $205/hr. Do they qualify for high voltage danger pay? Or is that what all shops charge these days?

 

[gearchruncher]

Or is that what all shops charge these days?

That's not all that unusual today, especially in NYC. But it's $210 in Seattle and that was 4 months ago. Lots of BMW level places are 190+ around here too.