Are 60 kWh owners going to be abandoned with future Superchargers?

[Rifleman]

I was planning out a road trip, and realized that many of the current superchargers are 140-150 miles apart, and are on the very edge of what a 60 kWh Model S is capable of doing year round.

With the 70d taking the place of the 60, do we think that Tesla will base the distance between superchargers off of the range of the 70, or will continue to place them at distances that can be reached in a 60? As a 60 owner, I for one would be very disappointed if most new superchargers are over 150 miles apart, as my car would have very little margin for error when traveling between them, and may not be able to make the trip at all. Have there been enough new superchargers since the 70d announcement to start determining a pattern?

 

[Paul Carter]

Doubtful, more likely they'll end up being 70-80 miles apart as opposed to be further apart. (Superchargers will need to be more dense for increased demand from Model S, and soon to be Model X and thereafter Model 3).

 

[bonnie]

I wouldn't worry overly much - the Model 3 is likely to have less range. Additionally, as Tesla continues to install new Supercharger locations, it only makes sense to spread them out.

 

[Rifleman]

An example of what I am concerned about, from the new Knoxville supercharger to the new Nashville that is under construction is 177 miles, a complete no-go in a 60.

 

[Kipernicus]

I'm not as concerned about the distance spacing between them as more and more get rolled out. It probably makes more sense to put new SpC in between existing ones rather than expanding a current one, but that is speculation. In CA we do see Hawthorne, Culver City, and Redondo Beach very close to each other, but we haven't seen any new sites along highway 5 other than Manteca.

I am a little more concerned about charge rate in the longer term future. Our cars aren't too much slower now, peaking around 100kW, but as batteries get bigger and Superchargers get faster, there may be a point where 100kW (plus waiting for the taper) is too slow and would cause a backup. One of Elon's criteria for other car makers sharing the network is that the cars need to be able to handle the output of a SpC.

But still, maybe there will be so few 60s relative to other cars that the impact won't be significant.

 

[deonb]

Also keep in mind that conventional wisdom has it that the 70 was introduced in the first place so that the X can have a minimum listed range of 200 (i.e. same range as the old 60). So the 60-style placement will still be needed.

I would hope that 5 years past the Model 3, that SuperChargers are spaced out about every 30 miles. If you're going to need 5000 SuperChargers anyway just due to the sheer number of cars... it just makes sense.

 

[Rifleman]

Also keep in mind that conventional wisdom has it that the 70 was introduced in the first place so that the X can have a minimum listed range of 200 (i.e. same range as the old 60). So the 60-style placement will still be needed.

I guess we will know for sure when the X is finally unveiled. If it has a 70 kWh option, us 60 owners should be safe, if it is 85+ only, then we have something to worry about.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I highly doubt it, they are getting more plentiful each day, and all CPO 60s come with super charging enabled. You can't buy any cars from Tesla w/out super charging any more.
*I assume it will be optional on the 3 to keep costs low, however maybe not if they want to keep that huge advantage over every one else.

 

[CmdrThor]

An example of what I am concerned about, from the new Knoxville supercharger to the new Nashville that is under construction is 177 miles, a complete no-go in a 60.

That is a poor example because Knoxville is filling in the I-75 route and Nashville looks to be intended for a future I-65 route, or I-24 from Chattanooga. I-40 to Memphis and Little Rock isn't on the supercharger map until 2016. I would imagine once that gets closer, a supercharger will be placed halfway between Knoxville and Nashville on I-40. The 2016 dots don't necessarily have as much thought put into them as the coming soon and 2015 dots.

 

[FLDarren]

An example of what I am concerned about, from the new Knoxville supercharger to the new Nashville that is under construction is 177 miles, a complete no-go in a 60.

What do you mean a complete no go in a 60? I did a a 202 mile stretch in my 60 at 2am with 19 degree weather and only 194 miles on the battery from where I was staying to get to the Chattanooga Supercharger. Granted, I won't ever try that again.

 

[Paul Carter]

Also keep in mind that conventional wisdom has it that the 70 was introduced in the first place so that the X can have a minimum listed range of 200 (i.e. same range as the old 60). So the 60-style placement will still be needed.

I would hope that 5 years past the Model 3, that SuperChargers are spaced out about every 30 miles. If you're going to need 5000 SuperChargers anyway just due to the sheer number of cars... it just makes sense.

Very good point! The Model X 70 ~ Model S 60

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What do you mean a complete no go in a 60? I did a a 202 mile stretch in my 60 at 2am with 19 degree weather and only 194 miles on the battery.

You'll need 212 rated miles to make that direct route in a 60 (if direct) at normal travel speeds. Doing a 10% speed reduction/hypermiling its barely doable.

 

[mspohr]

I was planning out a road trip, and realized that many of the current superchargers are 140-150 miles apart, and are on the very edge of what a 60 kWh Model S is capable of doing year round.

With the 70d taking the place of the 60, do we think that Tesla will base the distance between superchargers off of the range of the 70, or will continue to place them at distances that can be reached in a 60? As a 60 owner, I for one would be very disappointed if most new superchargers are over 150 miles apart, as my car would have very little margin for error when traveling between them, and may not be able to make the trip at all. Have there been enough new superchargers since the 70d announcement to start determining a pattern?

Why would you think that adding more Superchargers would make them further apart?

 

[Rifleman]

Why would you think that adding more Superchargers would make them further apart?

I am thinking more of as they expand the network to cover area's that are currently without coverage. They obviously are not going to re-locate existing superchargers to spread them out.

 

[CmdrThor]

I am thinking more of as they expand the network to cover area's that are currently without coverage. They obviously are not going to re-locate existing superchargers to spread them out.

If that was how they are doing it, then all existing superchargers would be equally spaced throughout the United States. Pretty much everyone would be able to get to one, but no one would be able to get between them. Obviously that hasn't been the strategy so far, most existing superchargers are fairly dense and the focus has been on adding routes with 100-125 mile spacing.

 

[glhs272]

I regularly drive my 60 175 to 195 miles on a charge (freeway @65-75mph). It can do that fine in the summer without blinking an eye. In winter that gets a little tougher, but 175 miles is still no problem and I do it regularly. That said, I don't like sitting at the supercharger for over an hour waiting for a full charge. 100 mile spacing should be the norm with 130 miles being the max. That allows for fast/efficient charge times at the supercharger. Seems like Tesla is mostly sticking to this strategy.

 

[Kevin Harney]

If that was how they are doing it, then all existing superchargers would be equally spaced throughout the United States. Pretty much everyone would be able to get to one, but no one would be able to get between them. Obviously that hasn't been the strategy so far, most existing superchargers are fairly dense and the focus has been on adding routes with 100-125 mile spacing.

This is not really true. Most of what they are adding is about 65-75 apart. That has seemed to be the goal at TM for the past year or so and the 2015 map shows a HUGE expansion of coverage in the east coast this year and the 2016 map shows MOST of the US covered for a 60kWh car.

- - - Updated - - -

I regularly drive my 60 175 to 195 miles on a charge (freeway @65-75mph). It can do that fine in the summer without blinking an eye. In winter that gets a little tougher, but 175 miles is still no problem and I do it regularly. That said, I don't like sitting at the supercharger for over an hour waiting for a full charge. 100 mile spacing should be the norm with 130 miles being the max. That allows for fast/efficient charge times at the supercharger. Seems like Tesla is mostly sticking to this strategy.

THIS !! except that they seem to be going for 65-75 miles so that you can skip one if you prefer or need to.

 

[SteveW25561]

No matter what cars are in the fleet, Tesla still needs to increase supercharger density, not only for existing cars plus new models to come, but to also handle the very real situations where you travel about 70% of the way to another supercharger but don't need to go further, then need to turn around to go home. There are many situations where you won't have enough charge even in an 85, dependent on which area you're in, especially if you want to drive around a bit at your destination.

Destination charging is not a viable mass market solution (spotty, often reserved for patrons, inconvenient if that isn't your destination, plus slow) if you plan to just be there for a short period of time.

It's my hope that tesla will eventually double supercharger density: at that point most situations like this (for all capacities) will be fixed.

 

[GRA]

No matter what cars are in the fleet, Tesla still needs to increase supercharger density, not only for existing cars plus new models to come, but to also handle the very real situations where you travel about 70% of the way to another supercharger but don't need to go further, then need to turn around to go home. There are many situations where you won't have enough charge even in an 85, dependent on which area you're in, especially if you want to drive around a bit at your destination.

Destination charging is not a viable mass market solution (spotty, often reserved for patrons, inconvenient if that isn't your destination, plus slow) if you plan to just be there for a short period of time.

It's my hope that tesla will eventually double supercharger density: at that point most situations like this (for all capacities) will be fixed.

Yes, the intermediate goal for SCs should be to space them no more than (a little under) half the bad conditions real world range, to allow out and back trips plus some local driving without needing destination charging, or being forced to drive past your destination to an SC. That implies no more than 50-75 miles apart. An hour of driving at the freeway speed limit would seem to be a reasonable goal, with the ultimate aim of every half hour ditto, which is about the lowest density you'll find gas stations along interstates.

 

[SteveW25561]

Yes, the intermediate goal for SCs should be to space them no more than (a little under) half the bad conditions real world range, to allow out and back trips plus some local driving without needing destination charging, or being forced to drive past your destination to an SC. That implies no more than 50-75 miles apart. An hour of driving at the freeway speed limit would seem to be a reasonable goal, with the ultimate aim of every half hour ditto, which is about the lowest density you'll find gas stations along interstates.

Yes, and this becomes even more important with time as the fleet of cars ages: if batteries start losing some capacity, real world range will shrink. With all of these factors, that I'm sure Tesla is aware of (and more), I doubt 60's will be abandoned.

 

[republic]

I'm not as concerned about the distance spacing between them as more and more get rolled out. It probably makes more sense to put new SpC in between existing ones rather than expanding a current one, but that is speculation. In CA we do see Hawthorne, Culver City, and Redondo Beach very close to each other, but we haven't seen any new sites along highway 5 other than Manteca.

I am a little more concerned about charge rate in the longer term future. Our cars aren't too much slower now, peaking around 100kW, but as batteries get bigger and Superchargers get faster, there may be a point where 100kW (plus waiting for the taper) is too slow and would cause a backup. One of Elon's criteria for other car makers sharing the network is that the cars need to be able to handle the output of a SpC.

But still, maybe there will be so few 60s relative to other cars that the impact won't be significant.

We're still a long way from having a shared SC cabinet putting out too much power for a 60 to handle. That'd be something like a 200kW cabinet.