Are Electric Cars Really Cleaner (No, according to NBC News)

[mknox]

He even mentioned nuclear as one of the dirty sources of energy for an EV. Is this guy even an engineer or have any scientific background? Very embarrassing for the IEEE. I would have thought they would hold themselves to higher standards.

While I agree with you 100%, there are those out there who are rabidly anti-nuclear and will take shots at it whenever they can. I just looked at Ontario, Canada's supply mix right now (11:00 am weekday) and we are 56.5% nuclear, 26.9% hydro, 8.1% wind, 7.5% natural gas and 1% "other", so pretty clean overall.

 

[dsm363]

The funny thing about attacking the grid for electric cars is that you're attacking the grid for your TV, computer, refrigerator, AC...etc (your entire house). Clean up one and the other one gets cleaner too.

 

[bluetinc]

Mknox,

Is there somewhere online that this type of info is publicly available? It would be great to bring up something like this during some discussions.

Peter

Thanks, Peter

While I agree with you 100%, there are those out there who are rabidly anti-nuclear and will take shots at it whenever they can. I just looked at Ontario, Canada's supply mix right now (11:00 am weekday) and we are 56.5% nuclear, 26.9% hydro, 8.1% wind, 7.5% natural gas and 1% "other", so pretty clean overall.

 

[CalDreamin]

Is there somewhere online that this type of info is publicly available? It would be great to bring up something like this during some discussions.

For California, the info can be found here
http://www.caiso.com/Pages/TodaysOutlook.aspx
http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140427_DailyRenewablesWatch.pdf
http://www.caiso.com/market/Pages/ReportsBulletins/DailyRenewablesWatch.aspx

 

[tslas]

Is there somewhere online that this type of info is publicly available? It would be great to bring up something like this during some discussions.

Actually, This information is available for All 50 US States from Tesla's website.
Go to Model S --> Top 5 Questions --> Electricity
Scroll down little further, and you should see part of US Map. You can drag that map around and click on any state and it shows percentage of source of electricity.

Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors

 

[mknox]

Is there somewhere online that this type of info is publicly available? It would be great to bring up something like this during some discussions.

Well, for Ontario you can find the information here or here.

 

[RAM_Eh]

Well, for Ontario you can find the information here or here.

Why does solar PV not show?

 

[Lloyd]

Why does solar PV not show?

As of October 2013, Ontario's solar energy installations contribute less than 0.4% of the province's energy needs

 

[mknox]

Why does solar PV not show?

Ontario's solar generation is currently all embedded on local distribution systems and is kind of an "offset" to local demand. There are currently no grid connected solar installations in the province.

 

[alexkiritz]

He did not have any solid facts, that is why he ends the video with "May not be cleaner". What individuals like these need to realize is that, Electricity generations has options of using Solar, Wind, etc. OIL HAS NONE.

Actually there are plenty of ways to make combustible fuels that are fairly clean. Most of the ways just aren't very efficient yet.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Actually, This information is available for All 50 US States from Tesla's website.
Go to Model S --> Top 5 Questions --> Electricity
Scroll down little further, and you should see part of US Map. You can drag that map around and click on any state and it shows percentage of source of electricity.

Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors

The data Tesla uses is accurate but misleading. Tesla is using data from the DOE Energy Information Administration that shows the generation source by state. Electric power does not respect state boundaries, though. Vermont only has one power plant of any size, the Vermont Yankee nuclear station, but it imports hydro power from Québec and fossil power (including coal) from the other New England states. California closed all its coal plants, but still gets some of its (imported) generation from coal-fired plants. So don't over-reach on any conclusions you might draw from these data.

 

[dsm363]

Is there a chart for power usage by state and what source it comes from (or by grid)?
http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WA#tabs-1
says 'consumption by source'

 

[VolkerP]

The data Tesla uses is accurate but misleading. Tesla is using data from the DOE Energy Information Administration that shows the generation source by state. Electric power does not respect state boundaries, though. Vermont only has one power plant of any size, the Vermont Yankee nuclear station, but it imports hydro power from Québec and fossil power (including coal) from the other New England states. California closed all its coal plants, but still gets some of its (imported) generation from coal-fired plants. So don't over-reach on any conclusions you might draw from these data.

Looking at the balance of electric generation and demand per federal states sure has its merits. But lastly, all electrons that come through my garage outlet are indiscernible. I turn to the following point of view: Who gets my money for selling me electricity. Will my money sustain operation of coal, nuclear, frack gas, or renewable power plants. I leave all the other scenarios to the experts.

So, in Germany it's really easy to debunk the long tail pipe point: Anyone can select one of the "true" green electricity providers (the ones that not only relabel dirty electricity with RECS certificates).

 

[sbronle1]

I came across a good video recently in my extensive reviews from a chap in England. I can't prove his numbers but he explained very clearly that the average EV produces about 40grams of pollutant per Kilometer based on overall average sources of electricity generation. ICE cars claim to produce around 100 grams per kilometer. He then evened out the argument when he added the amount of pollutant produced to deliver gasoline to the pump. This includes the drilling, refinement and then shipment of oil most of which is for fueling ICE's. He stated that when this was factored in, an ICE probably produces upwards of 450 grams/Km. Can anyone smarter than I confirm this? If true it certainly debunks NBC...

 

[derekt75]

I came across a good video recently in my extensive reviews from a chap in England. I can't prove his numbers but he explained very clearly that the average EV produces about 40grams of pollutant per Kilometer based on overall average sources of electricity generation. ICE cars claim to produce around 100 grams per kilometer. He then evened out the argument when he added the amount of pollutant produced to deliver gasoline to the pump. This includes the drilling, refinement and then shipment of oil most of which is for fueling ICE's. He stated that when this was factored in, an ICE probably produces upwards of 450 grams/Km. Can anyone smarter than I confirm this? If true it certainly debunks NBC...

Look at the wikipedia article I emailed to NBCNews:
Electric car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It says 311 g/km for gasoline (including tailpipe (249 g/km) and upstream (62 g/km)) vs 68 g/km for an EV in CA. (grams of CO2, not necessarily "pollutant").

I'm disappointed that they did not respond to my email.

 

[mknox]

The data Tesla uses is accurate but misleading. Tesla is using data from the DOE Energy Information Administration that shows the generation source by state.

That's a good point and important to remember. The links I posted for Ontario have both the generation fleet mix by installed capacity as well as the hourly utilization. Ontario's fleet is #1 Nuclear, #2 Gas and #3 Hydro. By the hour, Nuclear is usually #1 but Gas is lower because it is primarily used for peaking power here.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Is there a chart for power usage by state and what source it comes from (or by grid)?
http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WA#tabs-1
says 'consumption by source'

That link is to EIA estimates of total energy sources, including for transportation, heating, etc. Hence the big bar for motor fuels (gasoline). From a physics point of view, it's existentially impossible to parse out the source(s) of power you consume off the grid. Power's not like internet packets that can be routed or tracked. I think @VolkerP's comment (follow the money) is probably the best one can really do.

 

[Jeff Miller]

So, in Germany it's really easy to debunk the long tail pipe point: Anyone can select one of the "true" green electricity providers (the ones that not only relabel dirty electricity with RECS certificates).

We have a similar ability in Illinois. Our town has a 2 year contract to buy 100% renewable power, which here is mostly wind. This was an easy choice for the town Board because the price was the same as for non-renewable power. (I suspect that had that not been the case, we'd be getting the usual mix.) I agree though - if you have the ability to direct your payments to clean energy producers, it really doesn't matter if your are getting the renewable power or your neighbor is or (more accurately) everyone is getting a mixture of everything. What matters is you are getting your money to the producers you support.

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The links I posted for Ontario have both the generation fleet mix by installed capacity as well as the hourly utilization. Ontario's fleet is #1 Nuclear, #2 Gas and #3 Hydro. By the hour, Nuclear is usually #1 but Gas is lower because it is primarily used for peaking power here.

Wow - the mix in Ontario is exemplary. Would that we all had that. It's great that you can see utilization as well as production. I've tried to find our energy mix in Illinois and have never been satisfied that I've even got the average numbers right, let alone time of day. I know half of our production is nuclear with the balance mostly coal and some gas, but we're connected to a wider and much dirtier grid so I think in reality our mix is much more carbon intensive than the production numbers indicate.

- - - Updated - - -

That link is to EIA estimates of total energy sources, including for transportation, heating, etc. Hence the big bar for motor fuels (gasoline). From a physics point of view, it's existentially impossible to parse out the source(s) of power you consume off the grid. Power's not like internet packets that can be routed or tracked. I think @VolkerP's comment (follow the money) is probably the best one can really do.

Yeah, it's very similar to having a big water tower with different sources of water being pumped in through different pipes. You can't identify the ultimate source of the water you get from the tower. All you know is that it's a mixture of all the different sources in whatever proportion they contribute.

 

[mknox]

Wow - the mix in Ontario is exemplary.

Ontario made a decision to regulate the phase out of coal, but it has not been without controversy. Electricity rates have risen sharply here and are expected to rise another 40% over the next 5 or 10 years. I currently pay 11.93 cents off-peak, 15.82 cents mid-peak and 18.24 cents on-peak per kWh. About 10 or 12 years ago, it was around 5.9 cents across all time periods.

 

[ReddyLeaf]

Here's the PNW-BPA hourly mix: BPA Balancing Authority Load and Total Wind Generation

For current thermal, it looks like we're almost down to only the 1100 MW Columbia Generation Nuclear (WPPSS for those who remember). We will be mostly hydro and wind until July, including spilling hydro and turning off the wind turbines when there's not enough demand. Keep charging and driving those EVs! Take your vacations now!