Are we all vision only by 2021.24.4?

[Microterf]

Based on elons tweet in May, I thought the pure vision was rolling out fleet wide before beta 9, but I'm confused as it seems there hasn't been the autopilot speed limit that the cars without physical radars had. I can still set mine to 90Mph, and I believe the radarless cars are still restricted below that as well as following distance.

Can anybody confirm one way or another if we're on pure vision with this stack

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

Judging by how TACC is still behaving, I’d say radar is still in use.

 

[Terminator857]

I still got the one car away option. Is vision limited to two cars away? Perhaps vision only unless you set follow distance to one car away?

 

[Tam]

...confirm...

Elon tweeted the "download" button for the general public would be available soon (targeted for 3/16/2021). And that was more than 5 months ago.

If the general public got a pure vision FSD, you would hear about that past 5 months.

You would certainly hear that from the horse's mouth for catching up after the deadline not in years but in only 6 months later!

Since there's silence from the public and Elon (for not boasting), that means it's not unreasonable to assume means next year or years.

 

[AndreP]

Judging by how TACC is still behaving, I’d say radar is still in use.

If you're referring to phantom braking etc, that isn't tied to radar

 

[BitJam]

Can anybody confirm one way or another if we're on pure vision with this stack

Musk said FSD beta-9 is vision-only on highways. He said beta-10 should be vision-only everywhere and version 11 will be vision-only everywhere for sure. My guess is the hoi-polloi will be getting version 10 before the end of this year. IIUC version-9 is for testing only. So for radar cars we are not on vision-only anywhere with the current non-beta-9 stack but we should be vision-only everywhere by the end of the year.

If you're referring to phantom braking etc, that isn't tied to radar

Both Musk and Karpathy have said that certain forms of phantom braking are tied to radar. So getting rid of radar should reduce phantom braking. But maybe they're wrong.

IIUC the problem is that if the cameras say you are about to run into something the radar doesn't see then AP will brake. OTOH, if the radar says you will run into something the cameras don't see then AP will also brake. Only braking for things seen by both cameras and radar is suicidal. Braking for things that are seen by the cameras combined with braking for things seen by cameras and radar is essentially vision-only.

There are detriments to removing radar but it should reduce phantom braking.

 

[Tam]

...So getting rid of radar should reduce phantom braking...

"Reduce" does not mean the phantom brake is eliminated as proven below with the pure vision FSD beta 9.0. The system was accelerating to catch up with the car in front to 48 MPH. The instrument cluster shows the posted speed sign as 45 while the cruise is set at 51 MPH.

It then slows down way behind the car in front at 31 MPH which is a drop of 17 MPH:

 

[BitJam]

"Reduce" does not mean the phantom brake is eliminated [...]

I 100% agree! In another thread I said I might get an "I brake for mirages" bumper sticker for my Model Y.

I'm interested to see how far Tesla can get in the next couple of years with the current hardware. I like Chuck Cook's channel with that big view of the touchscreen. He thinks Tesla will need to add more cameras to handle the big unprotected lefts near where he lives.

Elon says they overfit for the San Francisco Bay Area. This is easy to see in the FSD beta-9 videos. It's a fascinating problem. I wonder if someday on the way to full autonomy there will be a map of places where FSD can be trusted and where it can't.

 

[Mardak]

"Reduce" does not mean the phantom brake is eliminated as proven below with the pure vision FSD beta 9.0. The system was accelerating to catch up with the car in front to 48 MPH. … It then slows down way behind the car in front at 31 MPH which is a drop of 17 MPH:

This case seems like FSD thought it needed to slow down for the intersection ~700 feet ahead. Maybe it got confused by the left turn traffic light as the neural network thought it was in the left turn lane due to overfitting to the Bay Area left turn lanes with solid white lines before the intersection. After getting close enough to the intersection to realize a separate left turn lane appears just before the intersection, it finally decides the current lane does indeed have a green light to continue straight and speeds back up.

This type of braking is indeed unnecessary although others might not call it a "phantom brake."

 

[Tam]

This case seems like FSD thought it needed to slow down for the intersection ~700 feet ahead....

But there would be a warning message for any potential slowing down due to intersections. In previous message, there were none because the Tesla was tracking the lead car in front that would lead it through the intersection. Usually, if there's a lead car, the TACC would keep the correct stopping distance and would not slow down to extend the distance in front further.

 

[TresLA]

But there would be a warning message for any potential slowing down due to intersections.

Not necessarily. Most of those stop light/sign warnings are based on map data (hence, why you can get those warnings around a curve before even seeing the light/stop sign). Second, it does slow down for unsure/unclear (to the car) blinking lights on signs or other reasons it isn’t sure why it’s blinking yellow. In any case, I think most people consider phantom braking to be sudden slamming on the brakes.

 

[Tam]

...In any case, I think most people consider phantom braking to be sudden slamming on the brakes...

Different people might define differently what "phantom brake" means. Some might exclude sudden slowing down due to wrong coding for the specific location speed...

For me, it's a generic term that covers any kind of deceleration that is undesirable even though there is a clear reason for the wrong speed assignment in the programming line for that location. It doesn't have to be noticeable harsh braking: When the road is clear and optimal and if the program says it should go at the maximum posted speed of 45 MPH then it should.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

If you're referring to phantom braking etc, that isn't tied to radar

Nah, not phantom braking. I’ve had a bunch of cars with radar adaptive cruise control, and the performance in my Y is similar. That’s all I’m basing my assumption on. Having driven 9.1, which is all vision, it was smoother than 2024.24.4 I drive everyday.

 

[Routybouty]

I agree with the way .24 behaves on TACC, it's still using radar. Our vision 3 has constant phantom braking, it's super annoying. The radar 3 has no issues on the same roads.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

I agree with the way .24 behaves on TACC, it's still using radar. Our vision 3 has constant phantom braking, it's super annoying. The radar 3 has no issues on the same roads.

Can you explain the phantom braking you are experiencing with the vision car? Like what kind of situation does it occur in? Are yellow flashing lights (either on or off) causing it? I have phantom braking all the time when the car encounters those.

 

[FalconFour]

My goodness, people still think "phantom braking" is solely related to the car in front of them, or detecting obstacles? Got news for y'all... it's way more than that.

I haven't observed anything that could be described as a false-detection phantom braking event in months. That is to say: in the very few phantom braking events I've had - as a very heavy AP user - none of them are related to something that wasn't there. I could identify the cause of every one of them - either by looking on the screen and seeing it picking up the wrong lead vehicle, or knowing what's happening to the lanes to cause it to also do so.

If you're not overwhelmed by cursing at the "phantom braking", take a quick look at the visualization screen when it happens. I can almost guarantee you'll find the wrong lead car highlighted in a darker color. Probably in an adjacent lane. It thinks that lane is merging and the car next to you needs to be let-in.

If it's not that, look at the new speed limit and speed setting. Another leading cause of braking is sudden changes to speed limits in irrational places, mostly due to bad map data or bad lane information. It could be thinking you've entered an offramp lane, so it's suddenly decelerating for an exit that you're not taking.

Finally, if you have the "stop light recognition" feature enabled, it slams on the brakes (I kid; it "decelerates unexpectedly" more aptly) for every gosh freakin dang sign-with-a-light-on-it that exists on a road. It's incredibly frustrating. I turned off "stop light recognition" pretty recently because I got so tired of grazing the accelerator through every predicted upcoming flashing-light I know of. The dang thing has "oooo, shiney" ADHD like mad. Not a good look. There's no practical reason for it to do that, yet... here we are. So, turn that off, in my opinion.

That said, my issue and observation with AP (and TACC by relation) is that following-car distance has completely turned to crap. It'll ram full speed into stopped cars and brake hard at the last seconds (harder than max regen, meaning it applies friction brakes to stop in time - all on AP). It'll lag behind the lead car in accelerating, like it's drunk or distracted. Overall, left to its own devices, AP/TACC feels drunk/distracted now - and that's a recent phenomenon. I also can no longer see 2 cars ahead on the visualization - a limitation that vision would have (without persistence), but that wasn't true with radar.

I also don't see dancing cars anymore, but that's probably an effect of going "video" with the whole AP stack. It now has a basic understanding of object permanence - but strangely, to not see 2 cars ahead... it doesn't? I dunno. I'm confused a bit. But these new "drunken AP" problems seem to be a recent thing coinciding with the "remove the radar" push. So... I dunno. Maybe not "pure vision" technically, but heavily influenced, I'd wager. They just haven't gloated about it because it's still not "technically" radar-deleted.

FWIW: I'm HW3 on a 2018 Model 3, with FSD. I have no idea how HW2.5 cars differ, but while I had HW2.5, I noticed things getting ... laggier, and feeling like the system is struggling with FPS. It's coming around again, possibly because of all the "shadow experiments" they've got running.