Are we ignoring the most consequential BEV adoptions?

[jbcarioca]

Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

It's interesting that we almost ignore non-Tesla commercial vehicles, especially busses, on this forum. Are we missing the most important category of BEV?

 

[jbcarioca]

For a long time many of us have ignored or dismissed Chinese manufacturers as inferior or inconsequential outside China. China is teh world's largest market, and busses are easy to produce as BEVs and have outsized environmental and economic benefits. Bloomberg explains that quite concisely.

 

[brkaus]

Interesting article. Thanks for the link.

Does that imply moving busses to electric will keep fuel costs down? And slow the transition of cars?

 

[Zythryn]

Unit for unit, EV buses make a huge impact.
That is very true. However, the site does focus on passenger vehicles and areas Tesla competes in.
I don’t see it as odd, or unexpected that the forum doesn’t make a lot of mention of buses.

 

[jbcarioca]

Interesting article. Thanks for the link.

Does that imply moving busses to electric will keep fuel costs down? And slow the transition of cars?

If one believes the Bloomberg reporting it is not implied, it is flatly asserted. One need not think of bus transportation becoming more popular, only think of the impact of mass conversion to BEV busses globally. As BYD, Proterra, Blue-Bird, Mercedes-Benz
Blue Bird - Electric | Bus Finder | blue-bird
https://www.evobus.com/en/evobus-gm...in-neckar-verkehr-gmbh-is-the-first-customer/
Electric Bus | Zero-Emission Bus | EV Bus
BYD Auto, Build Your Dreams!

Keep in mind that every one of these are introduction now, and being deployed in replacement of city busses and school busses. In all such applications battery sizing can by optimal of actual daily use patterns including recharging, so they do not typically require the larger batteries needed for cars.

 

[jbcarioca]

...
I don’t see it as odd, or unexpected that the forum doesn’t make a lot of mention of buses.

Actually, neither do I. However, this portion of teh Forum is dedicated to non-Tesla vehicles. Even here we barely mention the most practical and easy category for BEV adoption. FWIW, I am convinced that is one reason why Tesla has not entered this market; there is plentiful competition with quite adequate offerings. Tesla concentrates on the more difficult categories, and does a superb job of popularising categories nobody previously entered. Original Roadster, Model S, Model X, Model 3, Semi and new Roadster have all done things nobody thought possible. The consequences have been transformational, as we all see. Busses, specifically, are achieving such massive adoption precisely because they are less difficult to make practical, economically, budget-benefitting solutions.

Tesla, by contrast, achieves the seemingly impossible:, Swiss highway police cars, large taxi fleets, beating BMW and Mercedes-Benz is premium sedans...

It seems to me that while Tesla, Space X and The Boring Company act to help Elon Musk and all of his colleagues fulfil things we only thought of as fantasy.

We also need to celebrate the achievements of those that make sound commercial propositions for less speculative ventures. Even those were thought to be impossible back when BYD was formed. How else to think of Build Your Dreams?

All this makes me optimistic about the world.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Maybe because:

Transportation in the United States - Wikipedia

Maybe it's because buses only account for 5.5% of US highway miles.

Passenger transport statistics - Statistics Explained

In the EU coaches and buses are 9.1% of passenger miles.

Plus, this is a site related to Tesla, which means many people on higher incomes who definitely aren't bus users.
If you want more discussion about buses, try a more generalist site like insideevs.

Yes there are significant benefits, but buses are a relatively easy conversion because that's decided by government.

If autonomous transportation is successful, the likely effect would be to move more people into smaller vehicles and large bus miles would decrease.

 

[Zythryn]

The ratio of miles buses travel may be small. However. I am guessing the ratio of fuel use is more significant.
Electric buses also do a ton of heavy lifting in terms of reducing the local pollution along their routes, and the riders of the buses.

There electric buses are being adopted much quicker than electric cars. There seems to be much less resistance.
Perhaps because the buyers of buses look at the bottom line, while cars are a much more emotional buy for many.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The ratio of miles buses travel may be small. However. I am guessing the ratio of fuel use is more significant.

It's _passenger_ miles, which already includes the fact that they carry multiple passengers. A loaded bus is very fuel efficient per passenger mile and even though they often run light on passengers, the decreased stops help fuel economy.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661672/env0101.ods

In the UK, it's declined over time as car use has increased. In 2015 buses were 3.35% of all petrol and diesel fuel use. Passenger cars and taxis were 94.5%.

Electric buses also do a ton of heavy lifting in terms of reducing the local pollution along their routes, and the riders of the buses.

It's kind of hard to tell how much difference it'll make given the long bus life cycle. Replacing all current buses with the latest diesels would likely also put a significant dent in fuel use and pollution.

Replacing diesel taxis with electric would also help a bit, and perhaps in an outsized way on pollution. Cabbies are known to delete their DPFs for better fuel economy, which is terrible for pollution.

There electric buses are being adopted much quicker than electric cars. There seems to be much less resistance.
Perhaps because the buyers of buses look at the bottom line, while cars are a much more emotional buy for many.

The buses are largely purchased and subsidized by governments. They're obviously looking at more than the bottom line.

I think that buses are a relatively small and easy case. It's passenger cars, vans, trucks and aviation that are the big and tough targets.

 

[Brando]

Interesting article. Thanks for the link.

Does that imply moving busses to electric will keep fuel costs down? And slow the transition of cars?

At what prices are diesel fuel and electons equal in cost per mile ? Care to give an example??

 

[brkaus]

At what prices are diesel fuel and electons equal in cost per mile ? Care to give an example??

I’ve dine the math. I know electric is cheaper. But it really takes a shock factor on gas prices to make people consider electric. To much fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

 

[Brando]

Slightly OFF TOPIC as this is about diesel trucks vs Buses - they do share power supplies.

http://atri-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2016.ATRI-UMTRI.FuelEconomyReport.Final_.pdf
The State of Fuel Economy in Trucking

6.5 miles per gallon => $2.50 / gallon => $0.38 /mile

2kWh / mile Elon claiming to promise to sell for $0.07 national average about $0.11
=> $0.14 - $0.22 / mile
Tesla Semi

savings could be $0.24 - $0.16/mile
miles per year seem to range from 43,000 - 58,000 -190,000 per year
($10,000 to $14,000 to 45,600) ($7,000 to $9,300 to $30,400)
Total costs are a little more complex and would include oil, and brake pads costs added to diesel trucks.

Please double check above links before commenting.
Better yet, provide your own details of how you'd calculate.

 

[brkaus]

Please double check above links before commenting.
Better yet, provide your own details of how you'd calculate.

Is this directed at me?

 

[McRat]

In California, they already collected big bucks for switching to CNG buses. These probably have 10 years left in them.
They aren't going to swap a CNG bus for an EV.
We consider CNG as carbon free in California.
Yes, our school system collapsed a long time ago.

 

[brkaus]

In California, they already collected big bucks for switching to CNG buses. These probably have 10 years left in them.
They aren't going to swap a CNG bus for an EV.
We consider CNG as carbon free in California.
Yes, our school system collapsed a long time ago.

Texas has propane school buses that are only a few years old. Grants from Texas Environmental Quality or some such agency. Helps sell propane I guess. We are stuck too. .

 

[mspohr]

Bus Talk podcast to demystify electric school buses

Highland Electric Fleets launches a seven-episode podcast to help school districts and towns gain a better understanding of EV school buses.

pv-magazine-usa.com

Electrification of the school bus fleet in the United States would be significant in terms of carbon reduction in the atmosphere, as school transportation is the largest mass transit system in the U.S.– a $28 billion industry. With more states following California’s lead and enacting 100% zero-emission transportation mandates, schools face increasing pressure to electrify fleets.

 

[daktari]

And a lot cleaner and less noisy local environment.

There are a lot of BEV buses in my city, and as a bike commuter I love them. They are great. The noise from ICE buses and lorrys is substantial.

 

[mspohr]

school transportation is the largest mass transit system in the U.S.

 Makes sense to clean up school busses first. Plus, think of the children breathing fumes.

 

[cusetownusa]

Anyone have a link to a good article comparing the total cost of ownership of a Electric School Bus versus an ICE school bus.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

It's interesting that we almost ignore non-Tesla commercial vehicles, especially busses, on this forum. Are we missing the most important category of BEV?

Well, firstly it's a forum for a particular car company so there's more of a car focus.

But also, from 2012:

https://maritime-executive.com/media/images/graph1.png

Although it's great that buses are shifting rapidly, cars really _are_ a much bigger problem.