Are we Really Really Saving Money owning a Tesla?

[TomLee]

Just to finish the story here... woke up and the car lost 17km overnight.

I guess only the above-than-average phantom drain people brought this question up like you, me and the OP. People who charges often and drives longer distance don't see this problem, and then don't care. My average bi-weekly commute used to be around 400km +/- and I needed to fill up my ICE tank once in every two weeks. With my new M3 SR+, rated at 386km, I thought my bi-weekly commute should be covered by a single charge more or less (typical ICE man thinking). However, I found I needed to charge my car once or twice per week to cover my average commute. That's when I started to pay attention to the drain, drive habit, efficiency things. After reading a lot on this forum, especially the battery section of it, I learned a lot! Especially the wall to wheel efficiency kind of things. Your 17km overnight drain was way too high IMO. You might want to look into it to see what caused it.

Hello,

I have had my Model-3 past one year and enjoying every single time I sit in it (at times I just try to "find" reasons just so I can drive it).

But, every time I plug it to charge, this question comes in to my mind, in the long run "Are we REALLY REALLY SAVING MONEY owning a Tesla??"

Because, between Sentry mode, cabin temperature maintenance... and other miles-sapping activities that we might just not be aware of, my Model-3 tends to lose around 3-5 miles per 24 hours... give or take a couple of miles... WHETHER I DRIVE MY CAR OR NOT. That's serious loss of miles/charge, just with the car sitting out there in my garage.

What are your (unbiased) thoughts?

Anyway, to OP, I have logged all my added km and the distance I drove. For the last three month, I drove 4,026 km (which include two road trips) and charged total of 5,494 km, Meaning 4026/5494=73% of the efficiency (not exactly wall to wheel efficiency but close). So when I calculate gas savings, I'll factor that in. For example in my area with low lectricity ($0.0945/kWh) and extremely high gas price(1.5/L), my calculation would be: 1. Gas price 4,026 km x 12.5L/100km x $1.5/L = $754.875; 2. Electricity price 5,494km x 154Wh/km x 0.0945/1000Wh = 79.95. Savings on gas is 754.88 - 79.95 = 674.93. If we have no phantom drain and such (100% wall to wheel efficiency), we will be paying 4,026km x 154Wh/km x 0.0945/1000Wh = $58.59. savings is 692.29. So for me, even I have high phantom drain, I'm still save a lot of money on gas because of the high gas price in my area. Story might be different for the other areas with opposite gas and electricity prices. I plugged in some rough numbers in the below charts so you can compare difference scenario.

If you drive average 4000km per month

If you drive average 1000km per month, then

So in summary, regarding your Tesla GAS SAVINGS (no other things throwing in here), it depends on (mostly) how much you drive and then the difference between the gas price and electric price. Phantom drains, not so much.

 

[justsomeguy]

I'm fairly certain my car is just constantly awake sending data to Tesla. I see ridiculously high upload stats on my network when I notice these large drain events. It hasn't caused me any real problems other than reducing my efficiency. I'm considering disabling data sharing though.

To put it in to perspective, my drain during a 9-10 hour day parked at work is negligible. 0-1km average (excluding the times I see the range actually increase during this period).

 

[TomLee]

I'm fairly certain my car is just constantly awake sending data to Tesla. I see ridiculously high upload stats on my network when I notice these large drain events. It hasn't caused me any real problems other than reducing my efficiency. I'm considering disabling data sharing though.

To put it in to perspective, my drain during a 9-10 hour day parked at work is negligible. 0-1km average (excluding the times I see the range actually increase during this period).

Hmm, how popular is Tesla in your area? maybe they need more AP experience in your area?

 

[hcdavis3]

I’m paying 26 cents per KWH all in. It’s a bit more expensive than the gas for which I would be paying. Would I ever consider going back to an ICE car? NFW.

 

[Nocturnal]

I’m paying 26 cents per KWH all in. It’s a bit more expensive than the gas for which I would be paying. Would I ever consider going back to an ICE car? NFW.

I really don't understand how that is possible. Are you comparing the same class of car? What do you mean by "all in" on your rate?

 

[vickh]

The most expensive part of a buying a new car is depreciation. German cars generally depreciate like a rock and we have decades of data to prove that. We have very little data on how the real world depreciation will be on the Model 3, so it's very difficult to say what the true cost to own one is. I can tell you this though - I bought a new MR car and sold it for $200 less than what I paid for it after 5k miles. That is totally separate from and before the tax credits which means I basically made money on owning the car (try that with a 3 series, A4 or C class). Was it a fluke?.

wow I might try that early next year, after tax credit expires since my ultimate goal is Y.

I assume it was a private party sale? I wonder what vroom etc are offering for a SR+. They wanted to see my MVPA so I didn't proceed yet.

 

[Dan203]

The most expensive part of a buying a new car is depreciation. German cars generally depreciate like a rock and we have decades of data to prove that. We have very little data on how the real world depreciation will be on the Model 3, so it's very difficult to say what the true cost to own one is. I can tell you this though - I bought a new MR car and sold it for $200 less than what I paid for it after 5k miles. That is totally separate from and before the tax credits which means I basically made money on owning the car (try that with a 3 series, A4 or C class). Was it a fluke? Will the Model 3 residual plummet as more cars hit the road? Will the Model 3 be so popular and demand so high that it resists depreciation? Will the tech that gets added to the Model 3 make it more valuable and appreciate like Mr. Musk says? No one knows the answers to these questions, yet depreciation is the most expensive component of a typical new car purchase.

I think it was a bit of a fulke because of low supply and high demand. You probably could have got more if you really tried. When I bought my 2008 BMW 135i the dealership called me while it was still on a ship from Germany and offered me $5k to walk away and allow them to sell it to someone else. I was already paying full MSRP so for them to offer me $5k to give it up meant that they had someone willing to pay $10K over MSRP. The reason being was that they were rare. I was apparently one of only three allocations that my local dealer got for the entire year. (They only made 10k total in 08)

Anyway I'm thinking that if you tried that same thing today when you can basically order one online and have it delivered in 2-6 weeks you wouldn't get so much for it. Now that they're easy to get people will either buy new or expect a better deal on a used one.

 

[vickh]

I think it was a bit of a fulke because of low supply and high demand. You probably could have got more if you really tried. When I bought my 2008 BMW 135i the dealership called me while it was still on a ship from Germany and offered me $5k to walk away and allow them to sell it to someone else. I was already paying full MSRP so for them to offer me $5k to give it up meant that they had someone willing to pay $10K over MSRP. The reason being was that they were rare. I was apparently one of only three allocations that my local dealer got for the entire year. (They only made 10k total in 08)

Anyway I'm thinking that if you tried that same thing today when you can basically order one online and have it delivered in 2-6 weeks you wouldn't get so much for it. Now that they're easy to get people will either buy new or expect a better deal on a used one.

Yes also they discontinued the MR (and cancelled my order or sold it to someone else like your example )

I wonder how Tax credit expiring will factor in. I highly doubt Tesla will drop the price below $35K for a SR.

 

[Dan203]

Yes also they discontinued the MR (and cancelled my order or sold it to someone else like your example )

I wonder how Tax credit expiring will factor in. I highly doubt Tesla will drop the price below $35K for a SR.

I'm betting they drop the price of the options a bit when the tax credit expires. The base price will likely stay at $35k. Maybe that's why they jacked up the price of the Performance $1k recently after having dropped it after the rebate reduced, so they had a bit more headroom to drop it again in January when the rebate goes away completely.

 

[vickh]

Not sure if it's been brought up earlier, but there's also tax and reg. savings but that varies widely!

 

[MountainRatMat]

I’m paying 26 cents per KWH all in. It’s a bit more expensive than the gas for which I would be paying. Would I ever consider going back to an ICE car? NFW.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are mistaken. Even at 26 cents a KWH it is still cheaper than gas. Granted, I'm in California where gas prices are well over $3 a gallon but it is still cheaper to drive electric.

My math:

Assumptions:
75kwh pack for 310 miles of rated range
True range for 75kwh is 250 miles = 300wh/mi (this should account for efficiency and vampire drain)
Gas car gets 30MPG
26 cents per kwh


The results:
1 mile electric costs 7.8 cents in "fuel"
That would be equivalent to $2.34 per gallon of gas

 

[vickh]

I'm betting they drop the price of the options a bit when the tax credit expires. The base price will likely stay at $35k. Maybe that's why they jacked up the price of the Performance $1k recently after having dropped it after the rebate reduced, so they had a bit more headroom to drop it again in January when the rebate goes away completely.

it would also help if they priced the software upgrades as a demand lever. I think they've done that with the S in the past.

 

[vickh]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are mistaken. Even at 26 cents a KWH it is still cheaper than gas. Granted, I'm in California where gas prices are well over $3 a gallon but it is still cheaper to drive electric.

My math:

Assumptions:
75kwh pack for 310 miles of rated range
True range for 75kwh is 250 miles = 300wh/mi (this should account for efficiency and vampire drain)
Gas car gets 30MPG
26 cents per kwh


The results:
1 mile electric costs 7.8 cents in "fuel"
That would be equivalent to $2.34 per gallon of gas

another factor is free charging options are available, but I'm not sure if that will continue or lower once more EVs are adopted.

 

[Dan203]

I’m paying 26 cents per KWH all in. It’s a bit more expensive than the gas for which I would be paying. Would I ever consider going back to an ICE car? NFW.

Unless you were driving a hybrid this can't be true. If you take an efficiency of 0.250kwh/mile for the Tesla, which seems pretty common, you're only paying $0.065/mile for electricity. The current average for regular gas in MA is $2.59/gallon. Which means your ICE would need to get 40mpg just to equal the Tesla. It would have to do better than that for the Tesla to actually be more expensive. There aren't a lot of cars out there that get 40+mpg, and none that I know of that get anywhere near the performance of a Tesla.

 

[zannman]

No you aren't saving money compared to the cheapest option. If you wanted that you'd be driving a used Nissan Leaf.

You are gaining a ton of value over that used Leaf. . .

Have to agree here. I daily drove the Leaf 100 miles a day with 50% free charging for about 40,000 miles so far and saved approximately $4,000 over gas and probably $6,000 if maintenance is included. Total cost for the used Leaf was under $10K so it would be paying me back by now if I hadn't caved and bought a longer ranged car. I still have it because there's not much negative left for depreciation, etc. I'm down from 25K miles per year to only 2-3K miles per year on the Leaf now.

Even at 90%+ free work charging on the Tesla, I don't think I'll ever come close to this result from a financial standpoint, but there is much greater VALUE. Sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants

 

[ngogas]

Not sure about you but I'm saving money. $$$$..... Savings.

 

[SO16]

My question would have be instead:

"Are we REALLY REALLY SAVING THE PLANET owning a Tesla??"

​

What I mean is that people say that you still burn coal to make electricity, or extracting rare earth components is not clean...

1. Depends on where you live as far as how much coal is burned. In general in the US, it’s less than 30% and dropping.

2. Few rare earth components are used in a Tesla. Also a one time extraction for a vehicle (and possible recycling) vs the constant extraction for fuel is a major difference.

No matter what we do, there is always a trade off and a pollution component. But EVs in general are better than gas.

Owning any vehicle is “damaging the planet”. We can only hope to damage it less.

 

[Dan203]

1. Depends on where you live as far as how much coal is burned. In general in the US, it’s less than 30% and dropping.

2. Few rare earth components are used in a Tesla. Also a one time extraction for a vehicle (and possible recycling) vs the constant extraction for fuel is a major difference.

No matter what we do, there is always a trade off and a pollution component. But EVs in general are better than gas.

The best part about BEVs is that they don't care where the electrons come from. Your state may use coal now but if they start adding solar/wind then your car get more green. Or if you put some solar panels on your roof it gets more green. There is no way to make your ICE car more green. There is no magic gasoline technology that's going to make your existing car produce less carbon. But when you own an EV the greeness of your car is directly related to how the electricity that goes into it is generated. If the electricity gets more green then your car follows suit.

 

[Drwink]

Regarding cost savings, I actually don’t really care about the cost savings although there are many. Most important is the fact that I am not burning fossil fuels to get from point a to b. When you figure in the cost of consuming a non renewable resource, plus health care cost for asthma, cancer and other respiratory diseases associated with burning fossil fuels, not to mention climate change... that’s the primary reason why I drove a Tesla. I also ride my bike to work every day and I have to inhale all those fossils fuel fumes everyday. I think once we get past burning fossil fuels our grandchildren will curse this generation for its ICE reliance on fossil fuels. I want to be able to say at least I did my part to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels. And yes my house is solar powered. And it cost me more that what I paid for the electric bill. It’s not about the cost, it’s about the principle.

 

[hcdavis3]

Unless you were driving a hybrid this can't be true. If you take an efficiency of 0.250kwh/mile for the Tesla, which seems pretty common, you're only paying $0.065/mile for electricity. The current average for regular gas in MA is $2.59/gallon. Which means your ICE would need to get 40mpg just to equal the Tesla. It would have to do better than that for the Tesla to actually be more expensive. There aren't a lot of cars out there that get 40+mpg, and none that I know of that get anywhere near the performance of a Tesla.

Thanks Dan. Very informative. I’ve always had a problem with the math here. Your answer makes perfect sense. I was driving a 2019 Toyota Avalon. I can’t remember the actual MPG but I do know it wasn’t near 40 MPG.