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Argelius: 220V may not be available (solved!)
- Thread starter Argelius
- Start date
dsmith2189
Active Member
When I got my car the deposit ($5000 at the time) was refundable until you signed the MVPA. has it changed since they dropped it to $2500. are they moving that quickly now?
Hmmm. Well, I don't think because one charges less that means they are using "chewing gum and wire". Called two larger electric shops in Austin, to put in simple 14-50 plug in garage (right next to breaker panel). One quoted $1050, other $600, and the last $200. Who was the best priced $200, Licensed Master Electrician (someone who know's what the heck they are doing), 50 perfect reviews on Yelp and a small 3 person company. The big guys just charge too much. He's still making $ at $200, so why $1050 on the other-greed.
And you say cut them slack--their livelihoods depend on it? Why? It's a free market, lowest price isn't always best, but highest isn't either. If they want my business they will earn it--and price does matter.
My example goes to show, just call around, check ratings, and use common sense. Bigger company tends to mean more $$.
Looking forward to install next week and keeping my $800 for other Tesla goodies.
My .02.
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I've scheduled the installation in a little over a week from now with the first electrician. I will definitely report back how it goes...
mknox
Well-Known Member
In most jurisdictions, certainly here in Ontario, Canada you absolutely can do your own wiring, but you absolutely also must have a permit, and usually an inspection if you're not a "pre-authorized" electrician. I assume that's what you meant.
I stand corrected. He got a permit....with zero hassle and no inspection required. You guys home inspectors/cops or something? So what if he didn't get one?! :scared:
No pictures, no detailed descriptions - we have very little to go on here. This install could be right out of the 1930s: 60 Amp, twist in fuses, 120 volt only, totally archaic. These still exist in big cities; I owned townhouses like that. Refrigerators ran on natural gas. No incentive to upgrade. Electricians take a quick look & beat a hasty retreat.
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As I said, it was a guess -- in most parts of the US that would have been an illegal installation. No need for the snark - I do know quite a bit about the subject, and I'm just astonished that any location in a metro area would not have permitting requirements for wiring replacement and new circuits, as you described. I have a few friends in the Boston area and I've reached out to them to see what's different there.
As you can see above - he got a permit. I stand corrected. Thanks for calling your Boston friends to check in on me though (really?)?!
The "snark" comes from being accused of doing something illegally. I don't take kindly to that as I imagine you wouldn't either.
No, and no. I know electric wiring standards and methods, and the NEC well, and I help people learn the ropes of having safe infrastructure for their cars, since we're looking at the equivalent of installing gas pumps in homes.
I've seen the (rather unfortunate) results of not getting permits - insurance company denying claims and homeowners losing significant amounts of money because the homeowner didn't comply with the law on permitting. I've seen houses burn due to unsafe electrical installs. I've seen nearly-finished construction projects (closed walls, finish, etc.) torn completely back open because electrical infrastructure wasn't inspected and occupancy permits were refused.
Another item to consider is it can make your home harder to sell. Some insurance companies will not insure a newly-purchased home without a home inspection, and if he sees some new conduit / Romex / etc. without an inspection cleared sticker from the same timeframe, he may call it out and insurance companies may not insure without a more thorough inspection ($$). Some home sale contracts require the affirmation that all improvements were done to code, including permits, which can result in later liability if violations are found or some event happens.
My interest here is in promoting the safety of electrical installs, considering a Model S is likely going to be the heaviest load (in terms of yearly kWh) in your home.
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I did not say that you committed the infraction - many people are, unfortunately, screwed by contractors who don't do the right thing. There is a difference between "YOU DID THIS ILLEGALLY!!!11!!ONE!!ELEVENTYONE!!!OMGWTFBBQ!" and "My guess is that yours wasn't done legally."
It's not personal, it's for my education. Take a chill pill and relax.
Chill pill consumed....relaxed. I appreciate your efforts to edumacate. Happy Friday....
This waiting game makes me tense!
I agree with you.
However, there are those cases where people want "problem solving" where it is a euphemism for cheap, bubble-gum-and-duct-tape installs. An example that I can cite VERY frequently is a detached garage with an existing lighting/garage door opener circuit. The homeowner wants a charging circuit, but balks when the electrician tells him he'll have to install a subpanel with a new feeder to serve the circuit, and demands the electrician just run another circuit. The electrician politely declines. It is illegal under the NEC to run a second branch circuit to a detached structure from a panel in another building -- but some electricians (and even non-electrician handymen) will do it for the money, without permit, leaving you to hold the bag later. They give you the cheaper price, but leave you with something illegal. I've seen this 3 times in the past year.
I agree - make the best balanced decision on all factors, not just price. I would agree that bigger company probably means more $$, but would argue that it's because the bigger companies tend to deal with a wider variety of electrical work (especially commercial and industrial where the market bears more), and therefore more $$. Those jobs are more lucrative than residential work, so they may have an opportunity cost associated with taking the smaller jobs. You will find bigger residential electric contractors who will have very good prices based on economy of scale, too.
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I know the feeling, it'll be here before you know it!
mknox
Well-Known Member
I'm a 34 year electric utility veteran and have unfortunately seen the results of wiring problems and mistakes, even when done with the best of intentions. Our work is exclusively on the utility-side of the meter (demarcation point) and I'll defer to FlasherZ's extensive knowledge of building and wiring codes and standards.
I wan't my Tesla so bad, I'm more than willing to go to the Black Market to get my 220V...
:smile:
:smile:
It's the same way in my area. I was actually not allowed to place a second meter on my property. The county that I live in does require permits for damn near everything but the inspection was quick, painless, and set me back $85.
> I wan't my Tesla so bad, I'm more than willing to go to the Black Market to get my 220V... [Argelius]
Here is how the clueless can facilitate a DIY electrical upgrade:
If there are ANY underground electrical, telephone, gas lines on the premises then you MUST call 1-800-BEFORE.YOU.DIG, or whatever the number is in your State. They will notify ALL utilities that you need your property scanned, and the *relevant* utilities will visit & scan usually within 2 days. As they are spraying paint on the ground, politely ask them about the implications of their discoveries visa vie your intended upgrade. They will share their knowledge since they do not want any misunderstandings or misassumptions, they are there to provide facts for the owner to base intended improvements on.
If a trench from house to detached garage is implied, they will most likely point to where it should go. Have your own can of spray paint handy to mark it. They will inquire about what electrical uses will be added to the garage. You should say, as a minimum, that you need a 14-50 'RV' outlet inside the garage, but close to the door so the RV can park just outside and use an extension cord. But that you are also thinking of putting in a larger (maybe 100 Amp) sub-panel in the garage to handle the 14-50 as well as other possible stuff. Note their comments.
You can dig the trench yourself and buy underground cable at HD or Lowes. Buy heavier gauge cable than you might actually need. Aluminum is cheap enough. Buy grey EMT to go thru the walls and down into the ground. Get the store 'electrical clerk' not someone from the paint department to tailor your purchases so they are appropriate to your project. Come back on a day when the 'expert' will be there, or go to another store where there is someone with decades of electrical experience (these people do exist).
Put a temporary fence along that trench! Open up the interior walls opposite the exterior wall connections. Buy the service panels or outlet boxes if you can decide what you need. Do as much of this setup work as you can, but leave everything open to view for the installer and the inspector. At one extreme your Licensed Electrician will have no actual work to do - she will just look everything over and say: "Ok, I'll call the Inspector" (or whatever the next step is in your location). Or the LE will choose the breakers, make all the wiring connections and test it all out. But you will have done all the heavy lifting and jawboning with others (not your electrician). In fact, you should be able to shop around for a LE after all the work you choose to do is completed.
All applicable disclaimers apply; your mileage may vary, you didn't hear it from me, etc.
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Here is how the clueless can facilitate a DIY electrical upgrade:
If there are ANY underground electrical, telephone, gas lines on the premises then you MUST call 1-800-BEFORE.YOU.DIG, or whatever the number is in your State. They will notify ALL utilities that you need your property scanned, and the *relevant* utilities will visit & scan usually within 2 days. As they are spraying paint on the ground, politely ask them about the implications of their discoveries visa vie your intended upgrade. They will share their knowledge since they do not want any misunderstandings or misassumptions, they are there to provide facts for the owner to base intended improvements on.
If a trench from house to detached garage is implied, they will most likely point to where it should go. Have your own can of spray paint handy to mark it. They will inquire about what electrical uses will be added to the garage. You should say, as a minimum, that you need a 14-50 'RV' outlet inside the garage, but close to the door so the RV can park just outside and use an extension cord. But that you are also thinking of putting in a larger (maybe 100 Amp) sub-panel in the garage to handle the 14-50 as well as other possible stuff. Note their comments.
You can dig the trench yourself and buy underground cable at HD or Lowes. Buy heavier gauge cable than you might actually need. Aluminum is cheap enough. Buy grey EMT to go thru the walls and down into the ground. Get the store 'electrical clerk' not someone from the paint department to tailor your purchases so they are appropriate to your project. Come back on a day when the 'expert' will be there, or go to another store where there is someone with decades of electrical experience (these people do exist).
Put a temporary fence along that trench! Open up the interior walls opposite the exterior wall connections. Buy the service panels or outlet boxes if you can decide what you need. Do as much of this setup work as you can, but leave everything open to view for the installer and the inspector. At one extreme your Licensed Electrician will have no actual work to do - she will just look everything over and say: "Ok, I'll call the Inspector" (or whatever the next step is in your location). Or the LE will choose the breakers, make all the wiring connections and test it all out. But you will have done all the heavy lifting and jawboning with others (not your electrician). In fact, you should be able to shop around for a LE after all the work you choose to do is completed.
All applicable disclaimers apply; your mileage may vary, you didn't hear it from me, etc.
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Seven7
Member
I'm not good with electrician-speak. My understanding, from Mr Electric, the issue isn't a problem with the service to the house, but the difficulty in getting the 220V line from the house to the (detached) garage; he therefore said a new meter would need to be added to the garage, connected to the power lines (which enter the property via the alley by the garage.
Electrician No. 1 didn't see getting a line to the garage from the house as a problem, so I'm going with him (installation is in a week). Will keep everyone posted of my progress!
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