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Arguing in Circles

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Kevin Sharpe, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    Where is the evidence that Mr Broder understood the requirement to use range mode and keep the car fully charged at all times? Where is the evidence that he was not following Tesla's telephone advice at all times?

    You can keep trying to hammer your version of the 'facts' over and over but that doesn't change the 'facts' as some other people see it.... the Model S AND the driver both had problems and that was enough for the car to run out of charge.... you don't need a conspiracy here just new technology (with some issues) and a novice EV driver.
     
  2. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Why do you say the Model S had problems? There is absolutely no indication of that. I could have easily done that trip without even thinking about it. Yes, he is a novice user, but he also made at least one bone-headed mistake - leaving a charging station with a range display significantly lower than the distance he had to travel. That was ALL that was required to fail.
     
  3. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    why is a driver who runs out of charge "incredibly stupid"? Do you think this will be the first or last EV driver to run out of charge?

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    Significant range drop overnight in cold weather. No range recovery despite battery 'conditioning'.
     
  4. stevezzzz

    stevezzzz R;SigS;P85D;SigX

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    That's not the way I read it. My empirical observation from driving the S this winter is that when the battery is cold-soaked the Rated range underreports what the battery is capable of delivering. In order to access this 'hidden' range, you merely drive the car and the battery warms up through a combination of active pack heating and the recovery of waste heat from battery, inverter and motor due to driving. You won't necessarily see the Rated range increase, but you will see the Rated range drop more slowly than expected. So, for example, you might drive 30 miles showing a usage of 400wH/mi, while the Rated range display only drops 20 miles (these are not actual numbers, but they are representative of what I've seen).

    This is a fairly subtle point, and not one I'd expect a neophyte EV driver to understand.

    Instead of driving, Broder attempted to condition the battery while sitting in a stationary car, not plugged in. This is counterproductive: he used up some charge and went zero miles. He probably misunderstood Tesla's attempt to explain what he could expect were he to condition the battery on shore power, or to a lesser extent by just driving toward his destination while the battery warmed up some. It's also possible, though I'd be flabbergasted if it were true, that Tesla told him over the phone to sit there with the car on and the climate control running, to 'condition' the battery. More likely is that there was some combination of Broder's having mis-reported what the car was telling him, Tesla misinterpreting what Broder was saying, and Broder misinterpreting Tesla's instructions. It's the old telephone game, writ large on the NYT's stage.

    I don't blame Broder for being confused: like I said, this is fairly subtle stuff and Tesla has been less than forthcoming with solid information about how the Model S behaves in the cold. I do blame Broder for never charging the car fully and for failing to apply at the end of the trip what he had already learned about cold weather driving. Mostly I blame him for failing to take any responsibility for the end result of his actions, whether he was just misguided or actively seeking a sensational photo opp.
     
  5. napabill

    napabill Active Member

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    The test drive was supposed to represent how an average driver would fare doing a trip with the Superchargers. What you don't seem to be willing to acknowledge, IMHO, is that the "average" driver of a car, that he has purchased for $60K - $90K, would have familiarized himself with the car and it's technology sufficiently to have avoided the flatbed, without any assistance from Tesla. This isn't some game show where unwitting "novices" are asked to tackle some technical feat, with absolutely no preparation. I'm not coming down on conspiracy or stupidity, but clearly it is one of them.
     
  6. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    Why the provocative question? You're misinterpreting what was actually written. The point was that leaving on a trip with half of the battery range needed was stupid. Sure people will run out of charge but the point with an EV (certainly with a Tesla) is that you have exact information when you get in the car and when you're driving. Ignoring that information is either stupid or indicates that the driver recognizes the risk he/she is taking.


    You do a big disservice to the EV movement by suggesting that mistakes like this happen to "novice" drivers; the implication is that one needs special training to drive an EV. What better way to turn people off EVs than suggest that drivers need special training and they'll end up stranded or in trouble if they're inexperienced?
     
  7. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    This is an exact quote so how's that misinterpreting what was written? It's bizarre that an EV driver can be called "Incredibly Stupid" for running out of charge and I'm the one challenged for asking why he should be called that :confused:
     
  8. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    Taking two words out a sentence and calling it "an exact quote".....sigh, not worth the argument. Although as you obviously feel strongly about this I'm interested in how you would describe someone leaving on a 60 mile trip with 30 miles of range? Smart, average, stupid, optimistic?
     
  9. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    The only thing turning off drivers to EV's IMO is the witch hunt against Mr Broder and the NYT. The facts speak for themselves IMO and even Mr Musk has said that SuperChargers should be closer together. IMO this trip was a PR disaster waiting to happen because nobody expected anything to go wrong despite the freezing temperatures, long range, novice driver, car issues, and questionable telephone support (who knows the truth about this one).

    IMO the best outcome for everyone would have been for Mr Musk to follow up his call to Mr Broder by accepting that something went wrong and a promise to get to the bottom of it by working with the NYT and the running the trip again. Tweeting 'fake' simply set us all on the roller-coaster ride which undermined the credibility of the electric car for "road trips" which IMO was going to happen sooner or later anyway with SuperChargers more then 200 miles apart.

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    how about trusting (if Tesla's advice was to ignore the instrumentation because the car would recover the range lost overnight)?
     
  10. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    How does one become not a novice driver?

    I can imagine the conversation:

    Broder: I've got 60 miles to go and there's a big "30" on the dash. What do I do?
    Tesla: No problem, ignore the readout and just go for it.
    Broder: Oh, OK then.

    We can agree that no-one knows what Tesla advised the guy, although quite honestly IMO he must have been pretty naive to even call Tesla for advice in that situation. If Broder was the smart one here then I'd expect a conversation more along the lines of:

    Broder: WTF! I've got 60 miles to go and now the car says I've only got 30 miles range.
    Tesla: The battery will show better range when it warms up.
    Broder: So I should use more power to try and get better mileage?
    Tesla: Yes.
    Broder: Are you crazy? It's 10F here, I'm not getting stranded by the side of the road.
     
  11. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    It doesn't matter if Tesla told him to charge the car fully or not. Fact is he didn't so the review on the range is not valid. End of story. No versions of the 'facts' here other than the truth. Tesla says they told him to range charge, he says they didn't. You believe the person who took imprecise notes.
     
  12. Al Sherman

    Al Sherman It's about THIS car.

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    Kevin, I've honestly never been able to grasp where you're going with this. It's been a while now and I just don't get it. I simply don't see your point. I'm not Albert Einstein but I'm also not Forrest Gump. It seems crystal clear to me that either Broder is a lying fraud, or he was incredibly stupid which seemingly shouldn't be the case. This is especially clear to me if you put who he is in context. Tesla didn't just give the car to some guy on the street corner and say "here, drive this down the coast and let us know how it goes." He was reviewing a new car and the superchargers for the New York Times! What are you trying to say?
     
  13. Volker.Berlin

    Volker.Berlin Member

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    +1 My thoughts exactly.
     
  14. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Still missing the point, willfully I suspect. He didn't need to use range mode and he didn't even need to keep the car fully charge at all times. All he needed to do is at least take the same care one would with a gas car and fill it up when you stop for fuel, especially if unsure of the range or available fueling locations. Standard charge, which he was fully aware of, would have been enough if he actually used it consistently. He was supposedly so concerned with his range throughout his entire trip that he decided to charge it less at each opportunity.
    You keep trying to blame Tesla and the Model S for the failures of the operator. You're right, I don't need a conspiracy, quite possibly incompetence explains all of Broder's actions. In any case, it's not the car's fault.
     
  15. Rodolfo Paiz

    Rodolfo Paiz P85 "Plug and Play"

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    Just out of curiosity: are you defining the single particular case of the lawsuit against Top Gear as "Tesla's legal history"? Or is there a multitude of other cases you're including in that history?
     
  16. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I seem to remember a suit against Fisker, as well as Martin Eberhard, and maybe one other.

    As far as Kevin's constant attack on Tesla, he's been taking this direction ever since Tesla didn't make the supercar he thought they should and ever since he started to feel they weren't Eurocentric enough for his tastes.
     
  17. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    And this premise is disingenuous as well. If you buy a car that is mainly for driving around own with it's unmatched several hundred mile range, then you would rarely take a long trip. And that trip would most likely come after you have learned the readout/range characteristics like Steze laid out above. You would not take your very first drive as a limit testing event.

    And to acknowledge all those who have picked up their Teslas at the factory and made long drives home, who among then were not extra super careful about energy usage, watching the readout and awareness of long charging options to prevent flatbedding? When you think about it, it was the easiest solution for Broder. He did not have to continue on his journey so an early wrap up was the wimpy choice.

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    *Snap!*
     
  18. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    No, I've been arguing all along that both the car and the operator contributed to the failure.

    So we agree that no conspiracy is required.... great!

    Let's assume for a moment that both the car and Mr Broder contributed to the limited range on the last morning. Lets also assume that the decision to leave Norwich, Conn. was a joint one between Mr Broder and Tesla.

    It's then perfectly possible that the following is a true account of the final drive... "The Tesla person with whom I was in contact located on the Internet a public charging station in East Haven, Conn., and that is the one I was trying to reach when the car stalled in Branford, about five miles shy of East Haven" and maybe Mr Broder was really trying to reach the East Haven Charging Station by driving slowly and would have made it if the 12V system had not shutdown before the traction battery was depleted.

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    This is an unnecessary personal attack.... lets keep this OT shall we?
     
  19. Rodolfo Paiz

    Rodolfo Paiz P85 "Plug and Play"

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    This is the entire string of comments laid out together. Kevin, I think it's blindingly obvious that you did quote exactly two words and that you did misinterpret what was written. Al did not say a driver who runs out of charge is incredibly stupid. He said that this particular driver's behavior (not the end result of said behavior) was incredibly stupid.

    Feel free to disagree, but then disagree with what he actually said and not something different.

    And note that I'm not ascribing evil intent or anything like that... I'm just stating a fact in saying that you did interpret his statement, and that said interpretation was incorrect.
     
  20. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    You are correct, I should have said "why is this driver" rather than "why is a driver".... what I was trying to do was challenge the statement that Mr Broder was "incredibly stupid" to run out of charge (which IMO he was not).
     

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