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Arguing in Circles

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Like many others, I'm still mystified why this discussion keeps going? It's clear that Kevin Sharpe believes that Broder was a novice driver led down a no-win path by incompetent Tesla advice and cold-weather battery performance; others believe that Broder carries much more responsibility and must have been stupid (deliberately or naturally) to take the actions he did, regardless of what advice he received or didn't. None of us know for sure, either way.

To avoid going around in circles again and to to avoid descent into any heated argument, let's just end the discussion here.
 
Let's assume for a moment that both the car and Mr Broder contributed to the limited range on the last morning. Lets also assume that the decision to leave Norwich, Conn. was a joint one between Mr Broder and Tesla.

It's then perfectly possible that the following is a true account of the final drive... "The Tesla person with whom I was in contact located on the Internet a public charging station in East Haven, Conn., and that is the one I was trying to reach when the car stalled in Branford, about five miles shy of East Haven" and maybe Mr Broder was really trying to reach the East Haven Charging Station by driving slowly and would have made it if the 12V system had not shutdown before the traction battery was depleted.

This has been hashed and rehashed again and again so this probably won't help but he was already a working charger. He never did a full charge (both he and Tesla verify this regardless of who is to blame) and didn't even do a standard charge at his last Supercharger. Tesla would not tell someone to leave a working charger with less range than they had. If he took 'imprecise' notes according to the Times public editor (they admit this) what makes you believe his recollection of what Tesla told him was accurate over what common sense and every experience anyone else has had with Tesla would dictate?

I own Tesla stock and I approve this message.

I agree with Nigel too. No one will convince Kevin that Broder was anything but a honest, intrepid reporter who was led astray by the people who made the Model S and didn't know how to operate it.
 
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If he took 'imprecise' notes according to the Times public editor (they admit this) what makes you believe his recollection of what Tesla told him was accurate over what common sense and every experience anyone else has had with Tesla would dictate?
We cannot know for sure what was said... all we know is that no transcript or recording has been released by Tesla.

As I have said many times, I'm willing to believe Mr Broder was unlucky and the car has some issues.

This is probably good advice;

To avoid going around in circles again and to to avoid descent into any heated argument, let's just end the discussion here.
 
Where is the evidence that Mr Broder understood the requirement to use range mode and keep the car fully charged at all times? Where is the evidence that he was not following Tesla's telephone advice at all times?

You can keep trying to hammer your version of the 'facts' over and over but that doesn't change the 'facts' as some other people see it.... the Model S AND the driver both had problems and that was enough for the car to run out of charge.... you don't need a conspiracy here just new technology (with some issues) and a novice EV driver.

There isn't necessarily evidence that he understood the range charging requirement (ignoring his responsibility to do any basic research, or report the trip as it would be for most drivers). For the phone advice, let's just look at Broder's version of the "facts" for a minute and assume there was no conspiracy. Broder has admitted, or at least said "I simply can't explain..." the exaggerations and inaccuracies in his account of the 'facts' that resulted in needing a flatbed. How then are we supposed to believe his version of the phone conversations? Broder was caught lying and every time he exaggerated, omitted facts, misrepresented details like speed, charging times, and cabin temps, it was always damning against Tesla. Why don't you think that's evidence that he also misrepresented the phone conversations?

why is a driver who runs out of charge "incredibly stupid"? Do you think this will be the first or last EV driver to run out of charge?

I'd like to address this as a valid question (ignoring whether it's provocative). Suppose you're driving along for many, many miles, continually receiving "increasingly dire warnings" (Broder's words) that your car is dangerously low and needs to charge. Then you get louder and more frequent warnings for many more miles that it's so bad the car is about to shut down, and you just continue to drive and ignore all those warnings, mile after mile, long after your last phone call to Tesla Support. I think that qualifies as incredibly stupid. Sorry. And his behavior can't be explained away by saying "Tesla support told me to do this." I've heard lot's of stories of EV drivers running out of charge, but this is the first one that qualifies for "incredibly stupid" IMHO. It was so bad that even the NYT Public Editor described it as an especially bad error in judgement.

There is another explanation, other than stupid. Perhaps as a seasoned reporter he was under pressure to create a sensational story. His allegiance to his boss was greater than his allegiance to factual reporting.

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Significant range drop overnight in cold weather. No range recovery despite battery 'conditioning'.

You have a point but he didn't follow directions on how to condition it (plugged in) and the car has enough of a margin of safety built into it that even this problem or novice mistake wouldn't have prevented finishing the trip if he hadn't made multiple other errors in judgement that went beyond simple 'novice" mistakes.

The only thing turning off drivers to EV's IMO is the witch hunt against Mr Broder and the NYT. The facts speak for themselves IMO and even Mr Musk has said that SuperChargers should be closer together. IMO this trip was a PR disaster waiting to happen because nobody expected anything to go wrong despite the freezing temperatures, long range, novice driver, car issues, and questionable telephone support (who knows the truth about this one).

IMO the best outcome for everyone would have been for Mr Musk to follow up his call to Mr Broder by accepting that something went wrong and a promise to get to the bottom of it by working with the NYT and the running the trip again. Tweeting 'fake' simply set us all on the roller-coaster ride which undermined the credibility of the electric car for "road trips" which IMO was going to happen sooner or later anyway with SuperChargers more then 200 miles apart.

I agree that Musk wrote his original blog very poorly. He should never have made ANY accusations against Broder such as 'fake' and 'doomed to fail..." and instead just reported the facts from the log plus the obvious omissions from the article such as never charging full, etc. He should have let the readers make their own judgements.

To describe this as simply a "disaster waiting to happen" because of a novice driver and a couple of problems hardly seems fair. The guy was a reporter for a large national publication. You don't think that gave him some responsibility to do even a minimal amount of research about new technology with which he was completely unfamiliar? Since this kind of thing almost never happens to other novice drivers of EVs, it doesn't represent an honest reporting of what the public should expect on a trip like this. And since most EV drivers are NOT novices, it's fair to argue that he should have reported the trip as it would be for most EV drivers (who would know how to range-charge).

When the Times tries to defend things like not charging full by saying it requires "fiddling and faddling with buttons on the screen" and he was just a novice and couldn't be expected to do that, and then further using that as a reason that EVs are less convenient, is flatly untrue and misleading at best. There is one button, right in your face on the screen, and the whole process is a lot easier than finding the lever to open your gas port, not to mention unscrew the cap, swipe your credit card, insert a hose, etc. I'm sorry but I can't buy the whole "he was just a novice - it was to be expected" excuse. He had some responsibility to his readers to do at least a little basic research.


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how about trusting (if Tesla's advice was to ignore the instrumentation because the car would recover the range lost overnight)?

I know one of the support people he spoke with. She is very professional and knowledgeable. Technically I don't know what she told him but who should we believe here? A man who has been proven to fabricate the truth, always against Tesla, or a person who has given me accurate information every time I've spoken with her? Personally I think he was feeling pressure to come up with a sensational story and found a convenient way to misinterpret something he was told. A novice EV driver would be much more careful and err in the other direction.
 
Agree on all counts, hcsharp. I was a novice EV driver and managed to complete a 190-mile trip in my Model S in temperatures below 20 degrees F, with no superchargers anywhere nearby (and without stopping for any type of charge, on my first two long-distance trips). His story does not compute, and being caught in so many falsehoods by raw data takes away my initial desire to "assume incompetence before assuming conspiracy". I definitely now lean toward conspiracy.

Has Broder revealed what position he held, if any, in TSLA stock? I'd bet real money he or some of his buddies were short on TSLA the day that story was published.
 
I don't remember seeing anyone bring up this one point but in the response article that Mr. Broder wrote

The rest of that story is told in the article, including a Tesla official’s counsel, which I followed, that an hour of charging at the Norwich, Conn., utility would restore much of the range lost overnight, which had disappeared because of what he called a “software glitch.”

This implies that Tesla's counsel was given before he actually went to get the charge and in no way states that Tesla was told what his actual SOC was before giving him the go-ahead to continue his journey. I believe that he simply applied the rule and charged it for some time but couldn't be bothered to waste any of his neurons on validating if his SOC would be enough to get him to his destination.
 
He drove the other way to find a public charging point, then charged long enough to replace the distance he just drove. Common sense says you then aren't going to make the supercharger, even if this did magically bring back all that lost range, because you haven't put in enough to get back to the start point and the previous night he stopped the supercharger when he though he had enough.

10 seconds of Googling finds public charging stations towards, not away from, the supercharger. One is hardly any further from Groton than where he went in Norwich. That charge time could have then been reduced considerably. He has a giant touch screen in front of him, why not use it? I can find this out from the other side of the Atlantic.

We hear stories of factory pick ups. Many of them will be novices. Has anyone managed to flatbed it?
 
Like many others, I'm still mystified why this discussion keeps going? It's clear that Kevin Sharpe believes that Broder was a novice driver led down a no-win path by incompetent Tesla advice and cold-weather battery performance; others believe that Broder carries much more responsibility and must have been stupid (deliberately or naturally) to take the actions he did, regardless of what advice he received or didn't. None of us know for sure, either way.

Agreed.

Mr.Broder claims to be a professional journalist. No matter how much we beat this to death it is not likely we will know with certainty whether he acted out of malice or naïve stupidity. However, for anyone who objectively follows the facts, it is very difficult to avoid the conclusion that, at the minimum, he is guilty of a severe case of journalistic laziness. Even the New York Times doesn’t make the claim that he comported himself as a professional journalist should have. It is unfortunate that the Tesla brand should be damaged, even briefly, by a "professional" who fails to do his job.

Larry
 
Okay, I've stayed away from this because honest-to-God this circular discussion just gives me a headache. Soooo ... I'm going to exercise moderator rights and close this thread. Let's get back to other topics, now that we've beat this one to death.

Please.
 
What new automobile is tested on a long trip without ever being filled up, and then blamed when it runs out? There are none, until now apparently. The only difference is this one is filled with electrons instead of petroleum products.
Replace a very small number of words in the above and you have an opening or closing statement in a race or gender discrimination lawsuit.

Well phrased, JRP3.
 
JRP3, how do you figure my statement was false? There is not a single person commenting on this board that has first hand knowledge of the situation from either side of this, so how can you say my statement is false? You are being blind and mighty naive, the truth almost always lands somewhere in the middle.

"You're arguments are straw men Don. If you don't believe the logs were fake, you can not ignore the fact that the drivers behavior wasw either incredibly stupid, or he intentionally tried to flatbed the car.", show the logs instead of some graph you made up and then maybe people are more likely to believe you. And as for your comment about the driver... Isn't it most peoples wish that are behind electric vehicles that they are in everyone's garage eliminating our reliance on petroleum? Then you have to build these cars so that even, how did you put it "incredibly stupid" drivers can drive them with no headaches. Look at how many drivers that are out there that struggle to drive the gas guzzling semi hi-tech cars of today. You have to make EVs idiot proof or they are doomed to fail and Tesla should take the NYT points and learn from them. The biggest slap-in-the-face the CEO of Tesla could give the NYT is to offer the car to the reproter again with him sitting there as a co-driver showing/teaching the NYT driver as they complete the trip.

"Tesla definitely could have taken a softer tone but think they were justified in being upset by the article. Just look at the follow up articles from the NYT and you'll see Tesla was right that they are not playing this down the middle or being objective." Show me a newspaper that ever shows you a non-bias view of anything...
 
Flip the tables; Imagine a world of Electric Only cars, a manufacturer develops a new low-cost car that can do enormous range with some compromises on comfort. They give it to the reporter, he zooms off, failing to read the manual and is found dead the following morning in his garage as, foolishly, he sat for 20 mins listening to the radio after getting home - never realizing that these alt-fuel cars could poison people.

...a government investigation ensues, the power companies call for a ban, a grass-roots organization goes on a march to congress and they are outlawed.

RTFM btw :)
 
Here we go again. So new EV owners now need special training to stop them messing up.....:rolleyes:
I don't think that's what's being argued at all.... I think some people are simply trying to explore the idea that EV's are not the same as ICE car's on long range trips. The problem for me is that many people who contribute here are so pro-Tesla that they wont consider the possibility that the Model S, Tesla, or Mr Musk had anything to do with a novice drivers road trip failure.

Mr Broder just ran out of charge.... no big deal, we all get close to that at some point in our EV's especially when pushing the car, infrastructure, and our knowledge to the limit.

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...a government investigation ensues, the power companies call for a ban, a grass-roots organization goes on a march to congress and they are outlawed.
to be fair, in your example the reporter dies whereas in the real case we are discussing the car shutdown and the reporter called the tow truck.

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Methinks that perhaps we should just close this thread.
I think that would be appropriate because we've reached the point where even novice members like Ruffone can't really debate this IMO.