Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Arguing in Circles

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
JRP3, how do you figure my statement was false? There is not a single person commenting on this board that has first hand knowledge of the situation from either side of this, so how can you say my statement is false? You are being blind and mighty naive, the truth almost always lands somewhere in the middle.

The truth is the car was never properly charged, there is no debate about that fact. Broder admitted it, the logs verify it, so we all have verifiable knowledge of that fact. The detail are just noise. As I've said, same circumstances in a gas car and you'd be blaming the driver for not filling up when refueling.
 
Don / Kevin,

Two things:

- Even if they had used the same car, route, and the same temperature conditions, the question is, should they also use drivers with the same level of intelligence as Broader ? Otherwise the outcomes will be different. It won't be an exact recreation of the test.

- Even if Tesla had published the logs, what is the guarantee that it is not faked ? If Tesla can fake the graphs, they can also fake the binary data. So if the data also corroborates the graphs Musk had in his blog, then there is good possibility that data was also made up by Tesla


So your point that Tesla is not to be trusted, and Broader is as pure as snow, is well taken.

Jay
 
So your point that Tesla is not to be trusted, and Broader is as pure as snow, is well taken.

Jay
I'm sorry Jay but I think you need to read the posts again.... IMO the point being made about trust was that we don't have any independent evidence which as far as I'm aware is a valid statement.

I'm not pro-NYT or anti-Tesla, I just believe that Mr Broder, Mr Musk, Tesla, the Model S, and the weather, all had a part to play in the car failing to make the final leg of the trip.
 
Here we go again. So new EV owners now need special training to stop them messing up.....:rolleyes:

Methinks that perhaps we should just close this thread.

Here was my car experience before purchasing an EV: I was experienced at putting fuel in the car. I knew how to check the oil, but well, let's not talk about if I did it as often as I should. The closest I ever came to changing the oil was handing someone else the tools they needed to do it. (And then, inevitably, I had to hear a lecture about the quality of the sludge.) As an early driver, I actually managed to ignore an oil leak and throw a rod. Tire pressure I was pretty good at checking. I had the phone number of a mechanic I trusted. ... that pretty much sums it all up.

And yet ... I have managed to never run out of electrons. The interface on the Roadster makes it incredibly easy to understand state of charge, how many miles are left under current driving conditions - and the Model S is even easier. I *got* regen immediately, even though I'd never experienced it before. (That little doohickey on the dash that shows power going back into the battery is a good instant-feedback teacher.) I've never run out of miles, even though I've brought it close. (And those times, I knew exactly where the next charging station was & pulled over to charge when I needed to pull over.)

So I don't get it. Everyone here on the forum was a new EV driver once. And, to the best of my knowledge, not one of you has made any of the bone-headed moves that Broder made. Why do some here excuse Broder's actions, when they know they'd never do the same thing?

Crazy talk. Just crazy talk. (+1 on RTFM.)
 
Here was my car experience before purchasing an EV: I was experienced at putting fuel in the car. I knew how to check the oil, but well, let's not talk about if I did it as often as I should. The closest I ever came to changing the oil was handing someone else the tools they needed to do it. (And then, inevitably, I had to hear a lecture about the quality of the sludge.) As an early driver, I actually managed to ignore an oil leak and throw a rod. Tire pressure I was pretty good at checking. I had the phone number of a mechanic I trusted. ... that pretty much sums it all up.

And yet ... I have managed to never run out of electrons. The interface on the Roadster makes it incredibly easy to understand state of charge, how many miles are left under current driving conditions - and the Model S is even easier. I *got* regen immediately, even though I'd never experienced it before. (That little doohickey on the dash that shows power going back into the battery is a good instant-feedback teacher.) I've never run out of miles, even though I've brought it close. (And those times, I knew exactly where the next charging station was & pulled over to charge when I needed to pull over.)

So I don't get it. Everyone here on the forum was a new EV driver once. And, to the best of my knowledge, not one of you has made any of the bone-headed moves that Broder made. Why do some here excuse Broder's actions, when they know they'd never do the same thing?

Crazy talk. Just crazy talk. (+1 on RTFM.)

^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^

I'm not a techie and knew nothing about EVs before reserving my Model S. EVs make a lot of things easier (like never having to get an oil change), but its obvious that you have to learn a little about charging, power sources etc. A year ago, for example, I didn't know what 14-50 meant or charging rates or anything. Tesla makes it as easy as possible to learn, and with minimal effort I learned about charging and my car and ensuring I don't run out of charge. Running a Model S is a lot simpler overall than an ICE, and acting like only tech-minded people can comprehend it is ridiculous in the extreme.
 
I'm not a techie and knew nothing about EVs before reserving my Model S. EVs make a lot of things easier (like never having to get an oil change), but its obvious that you have to learn a little about charging, power sources etc. A year ago, for example, I didn't know what 14-50 meant or charging rates or anything. Tesla makes it as easy as possible to learn, and with minimal effort I learned about charging and my car and ensuring I don't run out of charge.
I agree with all of that, but did you learn it all in the few minutes briefing before you got into the car? Was your first trip at the limits of the cars and infrastructures capabilities? I doubt it.

Running a Model S is a lot simpler overall than an ICE, and acting like only tech-minded people can comprehend it is ridiculous in the extreme.
I don't think anyone is suggesting "only tech-minded people can comprehend it" but rather that as an EV novice Mr Broder may have made some mistakes especially when confronted with unexpected behaviour like the drastic loss of range overnight.

It's also worth considering the possibility that Mr Broder received poor advice from Tesla. Not everyone who works for the company is an EV expert in my experience.

- - - Updated - - -

Why do some here excuse Broder's actions, when they know they'd never do the same thing?
I think this is very simple.... Mr Broder is an automotive journalist who's used to stepping into cars and driving away.... he just made some mistakes that IMO are easy to make especially given the bizarre behaviour of the car overnight.

I think we need to understand two issues in a lot more depth... what's going on with the range drop overnight, and is it possible for the car to shutdown before the traction battery is depleted (loss of 12V power). Both of these technical issues could have had a significant impact on the final day of Mr Broders drive and both seem to be live issues for other drivers.
 
Last edited:
funny.... nothing relevant in this analysis?

The Tesla (Elon Musk) and New York Times (John Broder) Feud

Does this not worry you?

"So on February 20, 2013 at 1:48 PM, I asked Tesla for the RAW data for the MPG graph. A couple of hours later (at 4:50), I had my answer — Tesla refused to provide the RAW data. Here is the entire Tesla response I received:"

"Hi Jerry, Thanks for reaching out. The logs have been released in the rawest form available and necessary to support the facts. We will not be providing additional comments or information on this topic as we feel the blog speaks for itself. We are happy to provide clarity however, should you have any questions. Best, Tesla Communications"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree with all of that, but did you learn it all in the few minutes briefing before you got into the car? Was your first trip at the limits of the cars and infrastructures capabilities? I doubt it.

You are wrong about my experience. I got my Model S during Tesla's awkward ramp up phase of Signatures (poor communications et. al), and was surprised by at least a week by the early arrival of my car, which meant I had yet to install a 14-50 outlet at my house. So, I was forced for almost a week to massively conserve as much energy as possible and definitely pushed the car to its limit, because I was charging on a 110v during that time. I did a couple of things that any rational person would do -- I asked my delivery specialist for advice on how to conserve as much energy as possible until I had my outlet installed, and I read the manual (and tried to find tidbits online) that would help as well. I don't consider these steps I took to be extraordinary nor were they particularly difficult, yet somehow I managed to live my life (work, kids, errands, socializing, test drives etc.) with minor modifications without incident during that time period.

I don't think anyone is suggesting "only tech-minded people can comprehend it" but rather that as an EV novice Mr Broder may have made some mistakes especially when confronted with unexpected behaviour like the drastic loss of range overnight.

When Walt Mossberg (WSJ) or David Pogue (NY Times) get a new piece of technology to test out for review, they always push it to its limits (especially Mossberg), but also always read the manual and try to use it as a regular person would so that they can give it a "real life" test as much as possible in an effort to aid the reader in understanding whether it will work for them or not. For this reason, I find their reviews to be helpful to me as a non-techie, average consumer. Shouldn't Broder have endeavored to do the same?

For example, many reviews of the Model S have said something to the effect that it is going to take some getting used to different habits to drive an EV v. an ICE, but overall the experience is great etc. etc. I would have had no issue with Broder saying, "I'm used to just jumping in a car and driving it and not having to worry about power. It was annoying to me that, as an EV novice, I had to do all this 'learning' about how to charge, and the difference between max and normal charge, and to always plug in at night, and to try to find an outlet before road-tripping etc. etc." These were things that were shown to me by my delivery specialist and I learned in the first hour I had the car! These were obviously completely new concepts for me as someone who had never owned an EV, but they seemed pretty logical, and the explanations and giant on-screen buttons made it incredibly easy to understand.

Instead, Broder was, under the best case scenario that I can draw for him, ignorant/negligent in how he managed the car's power supply. He basically 100% relied on whatever Tesla told him (allegedly) and did nothing else to try to figure out on his own, as a regular "EV novice" (like, presumably, almost all of his readers) whether he could figure this stuff out on his own WITHOUT the benefit of having Tesla hold his hand the whole way, which most buyers of the car obviously wouldn't have. Wouldn't that be a better review for the NY Times' readership than what Broder did?

Your continued defense of his actions is frankly baffling to me. The Public Editor, whose every reflex at first was to viscerally defend Broder, basically threw him completely under the bus when she looked into the details of the situation. Broder's review was helpful to no one because all it did was essentially mislead people as to what the difficulties are with taking a road trip with a Tesla. There are obvious challenges and different behaviors that will need to be learned for that type of trip for any new EV owner, but Broder's article is particularly unhelpful in pointing those challenges out. Instead, he went the easy (and sensationalist) route which not only hurt Tesla, but much more importantly left the readers of his review with an essentially false or misleading impression of the capabilities (and limitations) of the car.
 
Don / Kevin,

Two things:

- Even if they had used the same car, route, and the same temperature conditions, the question is, should they also use drivers with the same level of intelligence as Broader ? Otherwise the outcomes will be different. It won't be an exact recreation of the test.

- Even if Tesla had published the logs, what is the guarantee that it is not faked ? If Tesla can fake the graphs, they can also fake the binary data. So if the data also corroborates the graphs Musk had in his blog, then there is good possibility that data was also made up by Tesla


So your point that Tesla is not to be trusted, and Broader is as pure as snow, is well taken.

Jay

I never said either was lying... I just stated that Tesla should release the logs so that we can judge for ourselves... And you just restated my point concerning making the drive identical..

- - - Updated - - -

The truth is the car was never properly charged, there is no debate about that fact. Broder admitted it, the logs verify it, so we all have verifiable knowledge of that fact. The detail are just noise. As I've said, same circumstances in a gas car and you'd be blaming the driver for not filling up when refueling.

You left out the part where he said he called the tech people for advice/guidance and they were the ones who gave him the okay saying he should be fine. So now an admitted novice EV driver who called the tech department for help and was misled by them and the same driver who said his gauges were not reading correctly is an idiot because he followed what he was told? So why do you keep leaving this small point out?
 
For one, we don't know what he was told, only what he claimed. Many of his claims have been shown to be false, which makes all of them suspect. He may also not have given Tesla the proper information. Regardless, his claim had no effect on his previous two charging opportunities where he failed to fill the car fully. Remember, he was supposedly freezing and reducing speed because he was so afraid of having enough range, but he decided not to do even a full Standard charge at the second stop. If he had done so he would have been fine, and could have also turned up his heat and driven faster.

- - - Updated - - -

Is this still going on? Good God, people. Everything that can be said has been said a dozen times over. You're never going to convince each other that you're right.

This thread is titled Arguing in circles, what did you expect?
 
Apologies to all artists and art lovers. But I couldn't resist.

ArguingInCircles1.png
 
Last edited:
The remaining question for me was (if anyone can follow me so far): What was the real distance travelled from the Milford Supercharger to the hotel, and back. And what would it have been without the detour to the Level 2 charger?

According to Tesla's charts, the distance the Model S drove, starting in Milford, was about 140 miles, which includes the about 20 miles detour to the Level 2 charger, but excludes the remaining distance which it didn't make. The graphic in Broder's article says it stopped in Branford after 51 miles (from Norwich), while for the whole way back to Milford it says 68 miles. So 17 miles difference. This means the originally planned distance would have been 140 - 20 + 17 = 137 miles. This contradicts the Broder's claim of 79 + 46 = 125 miles. However, if one uses 58 miles instead of 46 miles, which is in fact about the distance Groton -> Milford on maps.google.com, then it adds up nicely. So I think Broder was incorrect in claiming the distance of 46 miles, it was really about 58 miles, and the distance of the whole round trip, as originally planned (plus any additional driving around that he has done), about 137 miles, if not more. This means that when he charged 185 miles, he left himself a margin of 26%.

(However, to make things even more complicated, Tesla's blog states 61 miles for the "final leg" which apparently corresponds to Broder's 68 miles number.)

Side note: He claimed to have "90 miles" rated range remaining when he arrived at the hotel. According to Tesla's rated range log/chart, it was 82 miles range at the hotel before the night. (81.8 according to the duckware blog discussed in the last few posts). While "90 miles" might have given some the impression that it was a nice amount of remaining range, 82 miles actually meant the same for the rest of the trip, as 185 miles range meant for the whole of it: barely enough without safety margin.

So to summarize:

- He effectively claimed that the round trip to the hotel would be a trip of 125 miles. (He gave the numbers 79 and 46, which add up to 125).
- However the intended trip was actually 137 miles, or more. (This number would include including any additional driving around, that he may have done).
- With a charge of 185 miles, he had a margin of 26%. (that is generally not considered enough with a safety buffer).
- On the previous leg of the trip, between the two Superchargers, he lost only 15% to speed and cold.
- However, on the round trip to the hotel, his driving style was worse (faster), and he lost about 23%
- so he might have made it (by driving non-stop without overnight stay at the hotel), but only barely, and without safety margin
- any reasonable safety margin would have covered the overnight loss, which, with recovered miles, was about 20 miles.
- The one-hour Level 2 charge at Norwich was enough to make up for the real overnight range loss, but it required an additional detour of 20 miles.
- Recharging those 20 miles as well would have been the second possibility to charge enough to make the trip (the first possibility being a full charge at the Supercharger).

Conclusion: his behavior had to result in failure sooner or later. In so far as one might think he calculated in a way that he could have made it, one would have to say that he gave himself (almost) no margin for errors. However he kept making mistakes more or less at each turn of events (and especially in the morning).

Solution: just get a full charge unless you know what you are doing.