Arguing in Circles

[Kevin Sharpe]

Yes but the data they released ready does that. If you think they are lying or twisting the truth with what they already released then 'full data' would be the same.

As people have already stated the published data is not conclusive. Publishing the full data would remove any questions IMO.

It might have proprietary data in it anyway so Tesla has released what they are comfortable with.

It might or it might not... we've been happy to analyse Roadster data for years and they haven't publicly tried to stop that.

It is clear he never fully charged the car. That is beyond dispute and fact not open to interpretation.

Mr Broder did not need to 'fully' charge the car to make the final leg of his journey, and he ensured the car had more than enough range. If the car had not reported a significant drop in range in the morning then he would have completed the trip successfully IMO.

 

[napabill]

As people have already stated the published data is not conclusive. Publishing the full data would remove any questions IMO.

It might or it might not... we've been happy to analyse Roadster data for years and they haven't publicly tried to stop that.

Mr Broder did not need to 'fully' charge the car to make the final leg of his journey, and he ensured the car had more than enough range. If the car had not reported a significant drop in range in the morning then he would have completed the trip successfully IMO.

This thread has gone on so long I don't recall what your experience with Tesla ownership is? Specifically, have you ever even driven an S? A Roadster? I tried to go to your so-called website to learn more about you, but only found a picture of a Roadster, but nothing about you. Only a link to some other site that required registration.

Your statement that "Mr Broder did not need to 'fully" charge the car" indicates a complete lack of experience in the operation an electric vehicle. It probably even applies to the operation of an ICE.

 

[Al Sherman]

This thread has gone on so long I don't recall what your experience with Tesla ownership is? Specifically, have you ever even driven an S? A Roadster?

Your statement that "Mr Broder did not need to 'fully" charge the car" indicates a complete lack of experience in the operation an electric vehicle. It probably even applies to the operation of an ICE.

THAT'S gonna bring rain.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

This thread has gone on so long I don't recall what your experience with Tesla ownership is? Specifically, have you ever even driven an S? A Roadster?

I've driven 40K miles in my Roadster including ~2000+ mile trips across Europe. I drive all year round in temperatures between -12degC and 30degC. The vast majority of my trips are at the limits of Roadster range.

I've also driven most production EV's.

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Your statement that "Mr Broder did not need to 'fully" charge the car" indicates a complete lack of experience in the operation an electric vehicle.

Why would anyone spend two hours charging when one hour gives them more than enough range?

Think about this... "Mr. Broder charged the car to 72% to a range of 185 miles, for an anticipated 125 (79+46) mile trip. Even with the range being an overestimate, we absolutely know (from examining the range chart Musk provided; seen right) that the actual mileage would have been 139 miles, which is enough for the 125 mile trip. Conclusion: If Broder had NOT stopped overnight, he would have made the trip with no problems, even in cold weather.

Therefore, Elon Musk's accusation that Broder did not charge to 100%, while absolutely true, is completely moot. The car would have gone 139 miles, enough for the 125 mile trip.

But Broder parked his car (after going 79 miles; and the range decreasing 95 miles to 90 miles) for the 46 mile return trip. The next morning Broder awoke to 10° F weather, and a car that said it had 25 miles of range left instead of 90 miles (65 miles range lost overnight)."

 

[JRP3]

Because it obviously didn't. Broder kept claiming to be suffering from range anxiety his entire trip. Remember? Freezing hands, slow speeds? He had the cure for that anxiety in his hands. A little more time at the second supercharger.
As for releasing the log data, you obviously don't trust what was already released by Tesla, which already shows that Broder went faster than he claimed and had higher temperatures than he claimed, why would you suddenly trust the data they give you now?

 

[richkae]

Why would anyone spend two hours charging when one hour gives them more than enough range?

1. Because he was told to.
2. Because he expressed distrust of the range on the previous drive
3. Because you follow the recipe once exactly as written before you experiment with modifications
4. Because he is a professional journalist trying to do an accurate test

Any of the above are sufficient, and all of them applied.

 

[JRP3]

You may not need the logs but 'we' do.... seems to me that your whole case is based on trusting Tesla over Mr Broder and yet you're not prepared to test that trust in Tesla by requesting the logs.

I responded to the failure of this logic in the Circular thread.

 

[Al Sherman]

Because it obviously didn't. Broder kept claiming to be suffering from range anxiety his entire trip. Remember? Freezing hands, slow speeds? He had the cure for that anxiety in his hands. A little more time at the second supercharger.
As for releasing the log data, you obviously don't trust what was already released by Tesla, which already shows that Broder went faster than he claimed and had higher temperatures than he claimed, why would you suddenly trust the data they give you now?

^^^Exactly. Hence the "arguing in circles" thread title.

 

[Al Sherman]

I responded to the failure of this logic in the Circular thread.

I responded to his response.:smile:

 

[dsm363]

And again, he left a fully working charger with half the range he needed to get to the Supercharger from Norwich. Why would he charge two hours when one would suffice? I'm at loss for words now. You have driven 20,000 more EV miles than I have. If you can't see why taking off with 32 miles of range with 65 miles to go in the cold is a problem then I question your motivations here (yes, I know you believe Broder when he says Tesla 'cleared' him to take off).

 

[napabill]

I've driven 40K miles in my Roadster including ~2000+ mile trips across Europe. I drive all year round in temperatures between -12degC and 30degC. The vast majority of my trips are at the limits of Roadster range.

I've also driven most production EV's.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would anyone spend two hours charging when one hour gives them more than enough range?

Think about this... "Mr. Broder charged the car to 72% to a range of 185 miles, for an anticipated 125 (79+46) mile trip. Even with the range being an overestimate, we absolutely know (from examining the range chart Musk provided; seen right) that the actual mileage would have been 139 miles, which is enough for the 125 mile trip. Conclusion: If Broder had NOT stopped overnight, he would have made the trip with no problems, even in cold weather.

Therefore, Elon Musk's accusation that Broder did not charge to 100%, while absolutely true, is completely moot. The car would have gone 139 miles, enough for the 125 mile trip.

But Broder parked his car (after going 79 miles; and the range decreasing 95 miles to 90 miles) for the 46 mile return trip. The next morning Broder awoke to 10° F weather, and a car that said it had 25 miles of range left instead of 90 miles (65 miles range lost overnight)."

The obvious problem here, with you, and with Mr Broder, is the problem of time spent at the Superchargers. It is a valid point of discussion, but not one highlighted in the NYT article. I have 4,000 miles on my S and have done several long road trips. I would NEVER leave a Supercharger station without, at the very least, a "Rated" (90%) charge. And would more probably would not leave until I was approaching a "Range" (100%) charge. While the extra time spent might be an issue for some, conservative driving when it comes to range, seems important. If I'm leaving for a drive across the Mojave Desert, I don't try and compute the exact amount of petrol I'll need, I FILL-IT-UP! Why doesn't this apply here? If the time is an issue to him, then write about that. Not decide what you think is the proper amount you need, and hope you're right. Which, of course, he wasn't.

 

[Norbert]

IMO Mr Broder had more then enough range to complete the final loop to/from the SuperCharger. I believe the range drop overnight forced Mr Broder and Tesla to conclude that the car had less range than it did and to 'condition' the car and divert to a charging station. IMO the car was at fault here and both Tesla and Mr Broder then compounded the problem.

It sounds like you didn't read what I wrote. The point was to add more detailed calculations to what happened. I haven't seen such calculations before.

I already know what your opinion is, so what's the point of just repeating what you said before?

I never bother waiting for more range than I need when at public Charging Station.... the moment I have enough range for my trip I'm gone. This is exactly what Mr Broder did and I really don't think we can fault him for that decision.

When he was at the Supercharger getting 185 miles, it seems to me he had a safety margin of about 5 miles or less, as per my calculations above. Are you telling me he was that good at calculating the range he needed, in advance, knowing he would lose exactly 23% to speed and cold, and not more?

Regarding your own driving, do you really drive with a margin of less than 20 miles? If so, did you also do so in your first week of ownership?

- - - Updated - - -

Think about this... "Mr. Broder charged the car to 72% to a range of 185 miles, for an anticipated 125 (79+46) mile trip. Even with the range being an overestimate, we absolutely know (from examining the range chart Musk provided; seen right) that the actual mileage would have been 139 miles, which is enough for the 125 mile trip. Conclusion: If Broder had NOT stopped overnight, he would have made the trip with no problems, even in cold weather.

Therefore, Elon Musk's accusation that Broder did not charge to 100%, while absolutely true, is completely moot. The car would have gone 139 miles, enough for the 125 mile trip.

But Broder parked his car (after going 79 miles; and the range decreasing 95 miles to 90 miles) for the 46 mile return trip. The next morning Broder awoke to 10° F weather, and a car that said it had 25 miles of range left instead of 90 miles (65 miles range lost overnight)."

As my post here:Arguing in Circles - Page 6

shows, that number (125 miles, given by Broder as 79 plus 46) was wrong. The intended trip, plus any extra miles he might have spent driving around, was about 137 miles or more, not 125.

 

[Arnold Panz]

Does any of this have credence do you think?

The Tesla (Elon Musk) and New York Times (John Broder) Feud

I finally read this long blog post, and will never get those 45 minutes of my life back, unfortunately. So thanks for that. Of course, it addresses none of what I wrote so I'm not sure why this was your only response to me. You originally wrote that you doubted that I knew what it was like to be an EV novice driving the car near its range limits, but by happenstance that was my situation when I got my car, and with minimal knowledge and reasonable effort I was easily able to manage for almost a week under less than ideal circumstances (arguably harder than what Broder dealt with).

You also didn't address my main point, which was the fact that what Broder did and wrote about was completely useless and unhelpful to any normal reader of the paper because instead of trying to do what a normal person would do upon facing a new type of car (or any technology) he just (allegedly) blindly followed Tesla's instructions even in the face of basic common sense. In other words, even if everything Broder says is true and Tesla led him down the path to inevitable failure, he failed miserably in his role as a journalist reviewing a product for the supposed benefit of readers to know whether or not they could handle the same drive he did. This is why the efforts of others in the media and the several Model S owners to successfully recreate Broder's drive were so poignant, because they highlighted this essential failure.

Given your point by point rebuttals to everyone else, I can only assume you agree with me, or at least can't muster any decent defense of Broder on this.

 

[brianman]

Maybe the 19" wheel size kept him from fully charging the car.

Thank you for the first deep belly laugh of the day.

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Publishing the full data would remove any questions IMO.

Would you like to make a wager on this?

- - - Updated - - -

Because it obviously didn't. Broder kept claiming to be suffering from range anxiety his entire trip. Remember? Freezing hands, slow speeds? He had the cure for that anxiety in his hands. A little more time at the second supercharger.
As for releasing the log data, you obviously don't trust what was already released by Tesla, which already shows that Broder went faster than he claimed and had higher temperatures than he claimed, why would you suddenly trust the data they give you now?

Metaphor time. Broder is at a plush hotel with showers, a private restroom, access to a pharmacy, etc. He's been having stomach troubles all day, requiring frequent visits to the restroom. Would you leave this environment before your stomach is settled, assuming you can find port-a-potties along the way if need them? Or would you wait an extra hour until your stomach fully settles down? Based on the behavior in the original article, he would be writing about the missing toilets in the Model S about 30 minutes into his trip.

 

[Bearman]

I think its time for a word cloud of this thread.

 

[Krugerrand]

Would you like to make a wager on this?

Can I get in on that action?

 

[Laumb]

This is an exact quote so how's that misinterpreting what was written? It's bizarre that an EV driver can be called "Incredibly Stupid" for running out of charge and I'm the one challenged for asking why he should be called that

Its not the fact that he ran out if charge that Makes him "incredibly-fantastic-super stupid" - its the way he went out of charge. When you try to outrun nature laws, they will bite your ass. You simply do not look at your range and it says "20 miles left", then In the GPS and its says "65 miles left" and consider going for it?




Tapatalkin' from iTalatut...

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Try not to cross that line where your comments might sound belittling. I know that's not your intent. I don't agree with Kevin either but I'm trying to respect it.

Thank you, that seems perfectly balanced to me... unfortunately, as you will see from the recent posts, TMC is not the place for those of us who believe the data is important because it can reveal the facts about this story.

 

[JRP3]

If you don't trust the data that Tesla has provided up to this point it would seem a failure of reason that you would trust any more data from them in some different form. Either you believe Tesla or you don't, you can't have it both ways.

 

[wycolo]

> data is important because it can reveal the facts [Kevin Sharpe]

So maybe you have experience (and the tools) to deal with TM data? TM received my Roadster data scan but needed my time estimates as to when certain things occurred. Then they were able to wade thru all the data and focus on what might have happened. Still not conclusive but did point in a general area. Advised local TMShop to replace a module which solved the issue. So you, and the Public, can handle car logs in addition to telemetry data, etc? Like the dog chasing a car- what is he going to do with it when he catches it??
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