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I think there's a "tipping point" for EV adoption, at which point a combination of infrastructure and public awareness/acceptance opens the door to great gains. Looks like the 5% mark is a good line for that tipping point.

According to Geoffrey Moore's Crossing the Chasm ( Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling High-Tech Products to Mainstream Customers: Geoffrey A. Moore, Regis McKenna: 9780066620022: Amazon.com: Books ) the chasm exists at about 13%, and we are still in the innovator territory at below 2%. California may be ahead since EV sales are now above 2% but that still leaves us a long way from the 13% his theory predicts will be the tipping point.

Here is a nice little article about the book with some nice graphics if you dont want to read the book in detail.
http://readwrite.com/2007/08/06/rethinking_crossing_the_chasm


MTIyNDU4MDA3NDE3Mjg1OTEz.jpg
 
However, on your gas station point -- gas stations are almost always only profitable in the USA because of two primary things: cigarrettes and lottery tickets.
That is so, but presumably the stations still rely on their loss-leader, gas, to bring in sufficient foot traffic to support the nicotine and gambling profit centers. If the ICE traffic drops, this has the effect of undermining the foot-traffic of addicts and gamblers, and the same outcome ensues -- the station's profitability drops, and if it drops enough, you get the rest of the stuff I described. Or that's the hypothesis, anyway.
 
That is so, but presumably the stations still rely on their loss-leader, gas, to bring in sufficient foot traffic to support the nicotine and gambling profit centers. If the ICE traffic drops, this has the effect of undermining the foot-traffic of addicts and gamblers, and the same outcome ensues -- the station's profitability drops, and if it drops enough, you get the rest of the stuff I described. Or that's the hypothesis, anyway.

Very true indeed.
 
fwiw, in a post I wrote yesterday (which is beyond the window of time to add an update to), I see now I got it wrong re what JHM was saying. It was an oversimplification on my part to think that his point was that peak ICE sales happen in the year when annual EV sales equal the size of added vehicle sales of all kinds. Though less back by quantitative analysis than JHM's call, this does not impact my guesstimate of sometime between 2026 and 2030 for peak ICE sales.
 
There are three ways I want to amend my estimates of when the ICE peak will occur. These take a bit more analysis, so I am not fully prepared to spell it all out right now, and perhaps it would be best to set up a separate thread to work through this topic. So below I will introduce these three issues with the hope of deepening the discussion.

Rate of growth. My initial guestimate of the rate of growth of the automotive market, between 2% and 3%, is way too low. I have been looking at sales, production and vehicles in use data from OICA, OICA. I believe that the vehicle in use data give us the most reliable way to estimate longterm growth rates. From 2005 to 2012 the global fleet of vehicles in use grew at an annual rate of 3.62%. But the rate of growth in more recent months is just about 4%. During the last recession, the fleet continued to grow, but at a slower rate, while new car sales plumeted. It is hard to tell if the rate is truly increasing or just temporally up. But more realistic estimates of growth are in the range of 3.5% - 4.0%.

Size of market. Should we size this market just for personal cars or include commercial vehicles as well? My view is that for the purpose of understanting the potential of electric vehicles and when they will undermine growth in production of the internal combustion engine, it is best to include commercial vehicles. This is what gets us to 87.35M vehicles produced in 2013. The second issue wih sizing the market is whether we should focus on revenue or unit counts. Conventionally this market focusses on unit sales, but I do not believe this is adequate for understanding when the ICE industry come into genuine crisis. The ICE peak defined in terms of revenue is the year after which ICE makers perpetually fail to grow revenue. As Tesla is disrupting from the high priced end of the market, post the revenue peak traditional automakers may continue to grow unit sales of inexpensive vehicles in non-OECD countries. But the critical issue for traditional auto investors and lenders will be whether topline growth of will be possible. An automaker that has no credible way to grow revenue in the face of EV disruption will find it very hard to attract the capital they will need to survive this transition. So, I contend that we should value this market in revenue.

Global expansion of vehicle market. The third issue is particularly difficult to get a handle on. When I look at the size and growth of motor vehicles buy country or region, I see huge differences. The US is a highly motorized country with 791 vehicles per 1000 inhabitants. Here the fleet of vehicles in use grows at a mere 0.81% annually; moreover new car sales have been declining for quite a while. On the other hand, China has a very low motorization rate about one tenth of the US, 81 vehicles per 1000 inhabitants in 2012, but China's fleet is growing at 19.41% annually. I see three typed of markets: advanced economies with high motorization and low growth, advancing economies with low to moderate motorization and rapid growth, and underdeveloped economies with low motorization and low growth. Excluding China, Tesla has only entered makets with high motorization and low fleet growth. The fleet in Germany has actually been shrinking from 2005 to 2012, which is highly unusual. Naturally, these highly developed markets are where you will find the greatest numbers of high end car buyers, so this makes strategic sense for Tesla. But what becomes very hard to understand is where, geographically, the market will be 10 to 20 years from now. The best volume growth opportunies are in emeging economies in Asia and Latin America. The auto industry cannot be truly disrupted so long as ICE can grow at 5% or better outside of OECD counties. If we think of disruption happening in different markets at different times, we've got a very confusing picture, which invites incumbents to imagine that they still have game way past their prime. For instance, if the US is growing at 0.8 while Tesla advances revenue 50% each year, then Peak ICE in the US happens before Tesla reaches 1.6% marketshare by revenue. So this year the US market should be about $403B, and if the US remains about half of Tesla's revenue growing at 50%, then Tesla alone will for the US ICE peak by 2017. Is this enough to bring the auto industry into crisis? I doubt it. China is the oyster of the industry. Let's say that China's fleet continues to grow at 15% with the average car priced at $15000. This puts the size of the Chinese market in 2025 at about 120M cars and $1800B revenue. Even if Tesla had $180B (out of $350B worldwide) in revenue from China in 2025, other EV makers would need to produce about $360B to hit the critical EV penetration. But if Tesla has to sell more than half the EVs in China to disrupt this market, the peak ICE in China may arive well after 2026. I remain optimistic that Chinese EV makers will try to run well ahead of Tesla, which could lead to an ICE peak by 2025. In any case, it is clear that it will be much harder for Tesla to reach critical penetration in emerging markets, and this is where traditional automakers will continue go to grow their businesses.

So lets put this together. In 2015, Tesla aims for $6B in revenue, and grows 50% annually there after. In 2015, the global market is about 94M vehicles worth $1880B revenue, and grows 3.75% each year there after. By 2020, this puts Tesla at $45.6B and the global market at $2260B. Critical EV penetration is 7.5%. Tesla alone reaches critical penetration 3.56 = ln(0.075*2260/45.6)/ln(1.5/1.0375) years after 2020, that is 2024. If the rest of the industry is matching Tesla in EV revenue (Tesla has 50% EV marketshare) at the peak, then the peak happens when Tesla has 3.75% share of global revenue. Thus, the peak comes 1.68 = ln(0.075*2260*0.5/45.6)/ln(1.5/1.0375) years past 2020, or 2022.

So even after refining my analysis, I still get that global peak ICE will come in 2022 - 2024, but the auto industry may remain blind to this by imagining that ICE growth is still possible in Asian and Latin American markets. On a unit basis, this may be true, but on a revenue basis they will fail year after year. Complicating this may be that oil prices plumet before we reach the Oil peak in 2028. If oil is super cheap, under $35/barrel, then the developing conuntries of the world may well lap it up and increase motorization rates well before Tesla grade vehicles become available. So while Latin America may be growing its fleet at 7% with oil over $90, it may grow at 15% with oil under $35. So by the mid-2020s it becomes important for Tesla to address these emerging markets.
 
(Posting my mini ER preview post here, for posterity.)

Janet Yellen warns stock valuations are "quite high". Ugh.

My recollection is that PEs are not terribly above historical averages for the broad indexes. Educate me if I'm wrong

Bottomline: "don't fight the fed", I guess. Sounds like she's signalling that she's less dovish now

Indeed. Despite what much of the alarmist media writes, P/E ratios are actually nowhere near exorbitant levels of prior "bubbles." We are in a bull market and while interest rates remain low, people will keep buying stocks and homes, period, absent other financial shocks. Money chases yield and the Fed has made sure there is zero yield in holding cash right now. So this is kind of a "duh" to me.

In the past few months, market dips of several days in a row have been followed by sharp upwards swings that eviscerate everyone who "chased the short." This is a swing-trader's market, and timing is hard.

That said, we would easily be north of 240 yesterday and today if not for pessimistic overall market. All things being equal, I would expect a significant move upwards for TSLA when market goes green later this week.

However all things are not equal -- we have an earnings call tonight :smile:.

Model X delivery timeline, discussion of guidance for unit sales, and insight into revenues from Tesla Energy are the most important factors to watch.

Personally, I do not believe Elon and the company will miss market expectations on these categories, and have positioned to the bullish side for this call, but I am not "all in" this time. I could certainly miss some upside, but I'm OK with that for now. In fact, I like that we have not shot up excessively before this call. Leaves room to run.

As always, be careful with your capital and never risk more than you can afford to lose betting in either direction, folks.