TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Articles re Tesla—Fact or Fiction?

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Robert.Boston, Mar 10, 2015.

  1. nursebee

    nursebee Banned

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    NC
    My news feed this am says GOLDMAN maintains sell rating expecting Q1 #s to disappoint.

    Why the H did they increase their stake by 25% last quarter then?

    This is rigged!
     
  2. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,060
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY, USA
    Official line is that Goldman analysts are totally separate from Goldman proprietary traders.

    Statistical evidence is that when analysts downgrade, traders buy and when analysts upgrade, traders sell. So they're probably manipulating the market for their own benefit

    There were peer-reviewed papers on this, specifically with reference to Goldman Sachs. I'm not going to spend the effort to dig up the citations. Look 'em up yourself.
     
  3. ggr

    ggr Roadster R80 537, SigS P85 29, M3P 80k

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,172
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
  4. PeterK

    PeterK Model X & 3 Owner

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,665
    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
  5. winfield100

    winfield100 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,136
    Location:
    vivant traveler, northern hemisphere, bangladesh
    • Helpful x 1
  6. PeterK

    PeterK Model X & 3 Owner

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,665
    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Already did, along with many others. Unfortunately for every person who reads the comments, there are likely hundreds who read the article and thousands who read only the headline...
     
    • Like x 1
  7. Sudre

    Sudre Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    519
    • Like x 1
  8. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,060
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY, USA
    Zach Shahan at Cleantechnica said that he saw clear evidence of Russian trolls at his site years *before* the truth about the Russian "troll factories" (specifically Prigozhin's) came out. (They have a different distinctive pattern from homegrown trolls -- you can spot their grammar patterns. They also have a different pattern from unpaid trolls -- they are much more rote and repetitive. It's just a job.)

    Since they're trolling cleantech websites with ancient, debunked attacks on solar power, wind power, and EVs, yes, of course it's being used to attack Tesla.
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  9. ReflexFunds

    ReflexFunds Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    -
    I find one major problem with the media today is how much time journalists spend on Twitter and consequently how influenced they are by the Twitter narrative. The issues the media writes about heavily influence what the public most cares about. The issues Twitter users write about heavily influences what journalists most care about. Also journalists are increasingly relying on Twitter to provide a significant % of their sources for news stories (why wouldn't they accept the stories handed to them). Unfortunately the Twitter universe is saturated with people and organisations trying to manipulate the narrative on a particular issue for financial gain. The Twitter universe is not nearly representative of public opinion or what the public should care about, it is heavily skewed by private propaganda (whether that is individuals, troll factories, corporates or PR companies). But journalists live in this universe and they provide these propagandists a direct channel to the public via a supposedly independent and balanced medium. Whether or not the ultimate reports are factually accurate, what journalists have chosen to write about is heavily skewed to what propagandists want them to write about and not to what actually matters.
     
    • Like x 6
    • Helpful x 1
    • Love x 1
  10. SW2Fiddler

    SW2Fiddler Your concern. It's noted...

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    2,209
    Location:
    Houston TX
    Byline: Linette Lopez

    688DD702-DA17-4D74-B3A2-B1B5EB239D2C.png
     
  11. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,060
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY, USA
    Linette Lopez is now guilty of libel, and I suggest Musk prosecute her for it. She's flat out claiming that Musk's true statements are false.
     
    • Like x 7
  12. Familial Rhino

    Familial Rhino Endangerous Herbivore

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,540
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    #2132 Familial Rhino, Mar 27, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
    I agree with all you wrote. I wonder, though, whether this situation is better or worse than before.

    Before Twitter, journalists used to live in the much smaller universe of personal contacts, self-motivated leakers, celebrity publicists, government and corporate press bureaus, and PR outfits of every kind, without the public knowing who all these people were. All those entities also influenced journalists, only they stayed mostly in the shadows. They are still hard at work today, but now they have to compete with everybody willing to tweet @journalists, so at least more of it is in the open. It also allows us to challenge their sources and motives publicly, like @SPadival, @ValueAnalyst, and many, many others are doing to pretty good effect.

    That is, after all, how NYT "journalist" David Gelles displayed his depravity on Twitter for all to see when he bragged about page views, right after publishing his interview with "a deeply emotional Mr. Musk", in which "the brash Silicon Valley billionaire" let his tears flow while confessing that "the worst is over from a Tesla operational standpoint [...], but from a personal pain standpoint, the worst is yet to come".
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  13. CatB

    CatB Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    847
    Location:
    Alexandria, VA
  14. durkie

    durkie Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Their assumptions about battery life seem a bit strange: lifetime of 10 years and traveling 15000 km a year which sounds like they expect the car to accumulate 150000 km/93000 mi over its lifetime, which seems quite low to me. I'd expect at least three times the mileage on average, but I'm in the US.

    Given that, you amortize the CO2 cost over much less distance, so it inflates your g CO2/km number.

    It is also particular to the German energy mix, which I believe became much more coal heavy in response to Fukushima.
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Like x 1
    • Love x 1
  15. jeewee3000

    jeewee3000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2015
    Messages:
    461
    Location:
    Belgium
    This.

    Not only are the used averages unrealistic, the study implies that a 10 year old BEV-battery with 150.000 km on the odometre is simply thrown away.

    Tesla recycles old battery packs to extract the valuable materials as much as possible, reducing the need to mine/refine new materials for future batteries. At scale, this vastly reduces the C02 emitted to produce BEV's.

    How surprising though: a German study about BEV's vs ICE's favoring ICE vehicles? Who would have thought? :cool:
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Love x 1
  16. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,013
    Location:
    Clark Co, WA
    This is another of those studies that cherry picks the data to make EVs look the worse and overlooks a lot of hidden things in ICE vehicles. When one of these things came around a year or so back I did some research into how much electricity is required to refine each gallon of gasoline (petrol). The numbers out there vary quite a bit, and the amount of energy required varies depending on the grade of crude oil. Most of the crude we refine today is lower quality which requires more energy to refine.

    I came up with an average somewhere around 8 KWh of electricity per gallon of gasoline (some estimates are closer to 12). That's enough to drive a Model S about 25 miles. Some crude is also lost in the refining process for each barrel of oil in (42 gallons), you get about 20 gallons of gasoline and 11 gallons of low sulfur fuel oil which can be diesel, jet fuel, or heating oil. You get some other products out of a barrel like tar for paving and some chemicals used in other industries, but several gallons are lost.

    The CO2 footprint manufacturing ICE and EVs is not all that different. Yes there are elements used in li-ion batteries that are not used ICE, but the bulk of both cars are steel, aluminum, and plastic. Both an ICE engine and transmission are vastly complex machines that require fairly high grades of steel with tremendous amounts of machining which takes a lot of energy to make those parts.

    Also the core energy source to run an EV can range from coal to sunlight or wind, but the diesel car is always going to burn diesel. My car runs 100% on hydro because I live near a large dam.

    A large percentage of all the materials in cars have been recycled for at least 50 years. Li-ion batteries are no exception. Most will be recycled at their end of life, just like most of the rest of cars are. It's just the recycling process for steel is different than for li-ion batteries.

    There is a chart out there on the net in many places that shows the efficiency between EVs and fuel cell cars, but it demonstrates the high efficiency of EVs from the power generation to the turning wheels on the road. Stationary power plants burning fossil fuels are about twice as efficient as cars burning them, so pump the fossil fuel into a power plant, then charge and electric car and your ahead. From the power plant to turning the wheels is around 60 or 65% with an EV. I believe coal power plants are about 40% efficient and natural gas is around 60%. So getting your electricity from a coal powered plant, and taking in all the losses from the lump of coal to turning your car's wheels is about 24%.

    I wish there was a similar chart showing the inefficiencies of pumping oil out of the ground, sending it to a refinery, the refinery losses, then the losses getting to a gas station and finally put in your car and turning wheels. Considering ICE are around 15-20% efficient just burning what's in the tank, with all the losses between the oil field and your tank factored in, you're probably down to about 5% efficiency. Almost certainly below 10%.
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Like x 1
  17. LCR1

    LCR1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,218
    Location:
    Houston
    Germany is 38% renewable and an additional 12% Nuclear (50%.) Compared to the US 17% Renewable and 20% Nuclear (37%)
     
    • Informative x 1
  18. Sudre

    Sudre Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    519
    I had a simple question after reading this article. It claims, “Elon Musk suggested last week that a capital raise could be imminent”. This may be true. I did not listen to the entire call. I understood after the call (the bits I heard) that Tesla is not ruling out a cap raise but I heard nothing that indicated it was imminent. Altho I will admit anytime Elon hints at a cap raise it does happen fairly soon.


    Tesla says may seek alternative financing sources - Reuters
     
  19. mongo

    mongo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,200
    Location:
    Michigan
    That's incorrect quoting in the articles Tesla, Inc. (TSLA) Q1 2019 Earnings Call Transcript -- The Motley Fool
     
  20. colettimj

    colettimj Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    206
    Location:
    United States
    Have a look at the earnings call transcript. You can search that page for "raise" to see what was asked and Elon's response.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC