jeffro01
Active Member
Seems like a silly reason to cancel your reservation, or if not reason, excuse...
Jeff
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Seems like a silly reason to cancel your reservation, or if not reason, excuse...
Jeff
I started a thread awhile ago trying to find someone who had received a discount based on AP. I guess people are getting the opposite.
I moved from one state to a neighboring state and my auto insurance doubled. I spoke with my agent who I had worked with for years and he could not explain the reason for the increase. Needless to say, I went elsewhere and actually lowered my premium.
ev-now
Member
Interesting theory ... don't play in our pond. Could be. Or could be that they simply cannot find an economic model based on the claims they've experienced - in theory you can raise prices but you get to a point the market will not bear it.
ev-now
Member
Indeed, it's not insurance if the insurer knows the pay out will exceed the income - it's charity, or Obamacare ...
ev-now
Member
And that was about all the reform that was needed to Healthcare in the US (arguably with statutory capping of damage claims).
I don't think so. I think that -- parts price decreases from the factory to the contrary notwithstanding -- the small number of authorized shops and their demonstrated tendency to gouge when they can get away with it, plus what we've seen lately with SvCs offloading non-body repairs onto those shops, screws up the insurers' models and makes it really hard for them to price the risk.
Think about it this way -- take the recent thread here about a ball joint/control arm replacement that got offloaded onto an "authorized body shop" by the SvC and where the poster ended up at an impasse, where his insurer just wouldn't pay the $13K the shop insisted on, the shop wouldn't repair it for less, and the SvC wouldn't touch the car. The problem with that kind of nonsense from an actuarial point of view isn't even that it happens -- you can price that -- it's that it happens sometimes. There aren't many Teslas compared to other cars, there aren't many instances of some particular repair -- all these increase uncertainty and decrease the quality of the expected loss forecast that comes out of your model -- and when the cost of the repair is sometimes $3K but also sometimes $13K -- for the same work! -- now you've got all this variance making it even worse. Your actuarial forecasts are going to be garbage and you'll never have any reasonable degree of confidence that what you're charging will cover your payouts over a reasonable span of time (say, one quarter).
When our cars lose confidence in their driving models' forecasts like that, they beep, flash the dread red hands, and refuse to autosteer any more. When insurers lose confidence in their actuarial models' forecasts like that, they beep, flash the dread red hands, and stop insuring particular cars. Pretty simple.
The fix, amusingly, is either for everyone repairing a Tesla to gouge every time (this is probably not what we would prefer...) or for Tesla to put their feet down, audit the authorized shops' work, stop their SvCs from sending inappropriate repairs out to body shops, and stop or minimize the gouging. But until it either becomes truly universal or stops, expect more insurers to drop our cars.
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SureValla
Member
Insurance price is pretty high on my list of things I need answers to for my Model 3 reservation as well but to cancel it before knowing seems strange to me. Just wait a bit longer and see for yourself.
I may be ignorant but I'm assuming you can get a rate on the car before you buy it right? I also don't want to get into a situation where the first year is reasonable and it turns out only asshole drivers buy model 3's and the rate skyrockets 2 or 3 years in...
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SureValla
Member
I was trying to think about this from the perspective of the insurance company. When one gets a policy today the company is insuring person X to drive car Y in area Z near X's home.
With autopilot now the company will be insuring person X and car Y to drive car Y. To me it seems like these would be very different scenarios and result in two different rates. I'm not commenting that driver - AP is safer than driver + AP or not in this statement just that the two are different. Unfortunately, at the moment there *might* not be enough data on either to correctly write policies.
Kenriko
Former Vendor
I priced out a half dozen quotes for our P85 and Costco (Ameriprise) was the cheapest followed by State Farm.
ahurst
Member
I can certainly understand insurance cost being a concern, but there is very little equivalency here. You're talking about a $35K high volume car compared with a low volume car that's over $100K+.
Plus the a big part of the Model S repair cost is not just the complexity, but that it uses a lot of aluminum. Now I don't know where things are at with repairing aluminum, but it used to be really high. The Model 3 uses a lot less aluminum so I expect the repair cost to be considerably lower. The Model 3 is also less complex so I expect that will lower the cost a bit depending on the repair.
All in all I think Tesla learned a lot from the Model S/X experience, and are using that knowledge on the Model 3.
If I was a reservation holder for a three my biggest concern would be whether they hit the delivery date.
Insurance wise I'd be more concerned about whether Tesla was picking a fight with insurance companies by offering their own insurance. Tesla is offering insurance in some regions.
In some ways Tesla has to offer their own insurance due to the transfer of responsibility from the driver to the car as soon as you get to Level 3 of autonomous driving. This means that there will be accidents during the hand off that a normal insurance company would fight over. So it's easier for Tesla to simply offer the insurance themselves. It's also a little silly for me to get insurance if the car is extensively doing the driving.
Personally I can't wait for Tesla to have insurance in the US. That way they have a major incentive to get AP right.
I'm much more concerned about the product itself, and the ownership experience, than I am with when I will get it.
In November, I priced out an MX with USAA and State Farm. USAA was $100/month and SF was $150/month.
Fast forward to today, USAA is $110/month and SF shot up to $468/month. A State Farm rep called me yesterday to follow up on the quote. I told her that the quote was extremely high. She looked at the quote and said, "Sorry... oh I see that it's a Tesla; yeah I've seen high rates for those cars, especially in the past few months."
Fast forward to today, USAA is $110/month and SF shot up to $468/month. A State Farm rep called me yesterday to follow up on the quote. I told her that the quote was extremely high. She looked at the quote and said, "Sorry... oh I see that it's a Tesla; yeah I've seen high rates for those cars, especially in the past few months."
Sure you can get a quote before you buy the car. But that quote will typically be for a six month term (sometimes it may be a year, depending on company and state). Insurance companies price based on heir own experience with cars, if there are a bunch of losses with the model 3, you can bet the rating factors will go up.
The thing I am thinking about at work is if a Tesla should cost more to insure if the owner does NOT purchase the autopilot upgrade. The hardware is in the car and will need to be repaired or replaced in event of an accident and isn't functioning to help avoid an accident.
The active safety features from Autopilot are standard whether you buy AP or not. So collision avoidance, AEB, etc are on in all AP cars (or will be once AP 2 is updated). From an insurance perspective, I would imagine the cars will be treated the same.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I cracked the front bumper of my Prius Vagon yesterday. The shear took out the signal light and fender liner too.
A DIY repair including a new bumper, paint, glue for the light, and a new liner is going to cost ~ $200, and I expect it to look good to casual inspection.
I fully realize that this should not be compared to a 'like new' repair at a Tesla authorized collision shop of a Tesla. I mention the story to say that I want this choice on a Model 3.
Wondering what this has to due with insurance ? I like to self-insure my cars, precisely because I can handle minor stuff. I take out a $1M liability policy without collision or comp and pay about $30 a month. I hope Tesla can accommodate my behavior with a Model 3.
A DIY repair including a new bumper, paint, glue for the light, and a new liner is going to cost ~ $200, and I expect it to look good to casual inspection.
I fully realize that this should not be compared to a 'like new' repair at a Tesla authorized collision shop of a Tesla. I mention the story to say that I want this choice on a Model 3.
Wondering what this has to due with insurance ? I like to self-insure my cars, precisely because I can handle minor stuff. I take out a $1M liability policy without collision or comp and pay about $30 a month. I hope Tesla can accommodate my behavior with a Model 3.
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Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Well said. And, your final solution in the final paragraph would be wonderful except... There are at least 24 States in the Union that don't allow Tesla to have their own, consistent, non-variable policies for Service. It will probably all get better, with both Service Centers and Independent Repair Shops, once Tesla wins their Federal case against Michigan's Regulators and Officials.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
To my knowledge, Elon Musk only noted an insurance program they offer in China. It would be nice if they could do so in the U.S. as well. But insurance companies have worked just as hard as NADA to carve out a specific monopolistic market niche for themselves.
They even blocked Tesla from offering an Extended Warranty in States like Washington and Florida. They claimed that any paid warranty extension amounted to a guarantee, which meant it as effectively insurance. Those States apparently don't allow a manufacturer, of any product, to sell insurance for the products they build. It's perfectly OK to offer an included warranty for the purchased product, just not a separate one to purchase.
The reason why the 'independent franchised dealerships' can offer insurance is specifically because of their independence from manufacturers. Somehow though, State regulators and legislators don't see it as a conflict of interest for those 'independent franchised dealerships' to act as salesmen of the cars, salesmen for the insurance, and salesmen providing financing all at once... Because they are so... 'independent' of the primary firms those industries represent.
I suspect that Tesla absolutely wants to convince insurance companies that Autopilot and Autonomous systems can be made 'right'. Once insurance companies were convinced that supplemental restraint systems (SRS) improved safety, they lobbied to make them standard. Once insurance companies were convinced that anti-lock braking systems (ABS) improved safety, they lobbied to make them standard. Once insurance companies were convinced automatic emergency braking systems (AEB) improved safety, they lobbied to make them standard. Tesla would like to accelerate the adoption of Level 5 Autonomy in vehicles, and the best way to do so is by providing data to insurance companies that shows how risk of property damage and injury or death is mitigated by the safety systems in their cars. But yeah, if the insurance companies dig in their heels and refuse to take a greatly minimized risk, Tesla may well do so themselves, by attempting to form their own insurance company -- one that only insures vehicles that are Level 5 capable. Though really, ordinary insurance companies would have to be rather stupid to not insure vehicles that were proven to be 90% less likely to have accidents, as is Elon's goal.
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