Ask Me Anything -- Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman Defends Picking the Benz

[DaveT]

It's a more complete car. And frankly, a better car.

Here you go again making a subjective statement as if it's an objective one. I'm not sure you're understanding this but it's really damaging your argument here.

You could say something like "I lean toward luxury/comfort and I'm not a performance geek, tech geek or environment geek, and that's why I like the S550 more than the Model S." That would be totally fine and I'd have no problem with that.

But if you say, "The S550 is clearly the better car" as an objective statement, then I don't see how you're going to defend that since on many important levels the Model S is better (performance, handling, tech, zero emissions, software updates, user interface, etc) and to more and more people they're choosing the Model S over the S550 because it's more appealing and the better car for them.

 

[jonnylieberman]

A couple of general points

I'm not saying the Model S is bad. I'm saying that in comparison to the S-Class, it's not the better car. If this would have been against say the BMW 7 Series, the Model S would have hit it out of the park. Alas (for the Tesla faithful), the new S-Class is one of the best cars I've ever driven and I drive over 200 cars a year. The S-Class is a juggernaut. In mind, a historical car. Much the way the Model S is. But the Model S is going to go down in the record books for being the first viable (and fun to drive) electric vehicle, the W222 S-Class will go down in history as the vehicle that most spooked the competition. Other manufacturers are a bit interested in what Tesla's up to. They're scared to death of Mercedes.

Safety. Having an engine doesn't make a car more dangerous. In fact, depending on how it's designed, energy from a crash can be absorbed by an engine. Anyhow, the Model S is incredibly safe. Though I'd wager that the S-Class is even safer in terms of passive safety I haven't seen the crash scores yet, but Mercedes prides itself on safety. We'll see. There's no doubt that the S-Class is actively much safer. Again, not saying the Tesla isn't safe, it is. But I'd feel safer in an S-Class. I'd rather my mother or wife be in an S-Class.

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Here you go again making a subjective statement as if it's an objective one. I'm not sure you're understanding this but it's really damaging your argument here.

'
My review, like all car reviews are 100% subjective. I like car A better than car B. The objective stuff is the numbers. It's the interpretation of the numbers that make things interesting.

 

[walla2]

Gas mileage sucking, not a deal breaker.

Just wallet busting every week.

I didn't hate the exterior.

I wouldn't use this the "it's not bad" argument to defend your choice.

The Model S just happens to be exceptional.

Cars are for driving. The better car is the one that drives better in the same class.

Besides, when you floor a Tesla (like I explained) you have to do accounting -- is this going to affect my life?

I went through my 21s in 3500 miles. I have no local driving range anxiety ever. The only way it affects my life is making me grin too much.

 

[Canuck]

A couple of general points...

Safety. Having an engine doesn't make a car more dangerous. In fact, depending on how it's designed, energy from a crash can be absorbed by an engine. Anyhow, the Model S is incredibly safe. Though I'd wager that the S-Class is even safer in terms of passive safety I haven't seen the crash scores yet, but Mercedes prides itself on safety. We'll see. There's no doubt that the S-Class is actively much safer. Again, not saying the Tesla isn't safe, it is. But I'd feel safer in an S-Class. I'd rather my mother or wife be in an S-Class.

Does anyone else find it strange that safety of the person inside the vehicle is considered to be a relevant factor, but the safety of people on the planet by not burning fossil fuels (or not nearly as much depending on source) is not a consideration at all? I'm glad your mother or wife will be safe. I feel sorry for our kids though since another year for the Model S would have undoubtedly been much better for their future than the gas guzzler you chose instead.

Thanks though for coming here and defending your review. That's a very upstanding thing to do.

 

[jonnylieberman]

Cars are for driving. The better car is the one that drives better in the same class.

Oh, you want to play THAT game? Then the Jaguar XJ is better than the Tesla.

I should add that stuff like our figure eight is limit handling. In terms of going down the road, the Mercedes drives better.

 

[dsm363]

Actually, having to design around an engine means less crumple zone so should be less safe. Can any of the engineers up here speak to that?

The Mercedes S class may be the pinnacle of ICE technology but 17mpg in the city doesn't really do it for many people here at least. Give the Model S a few more years to add more features and revise the interior and it will be much tougher to call the S class a 'better' car.

 

[walla2]

I'm just playing with you fyi but for the record:

1. A Tesla was just rear ended by a 18 wheeler and the Tesla drove home. The truck got towed.

2. Checkout narrow small overlap testing every mercedes and then the model s. Feel safer still? The Tesla wins this hands down over every car ever made to date.

 

[dsm363]

Oh, you want to play THAT game? Then the Jaguar XJ is better than the Tesla.

I should add that stuff like our figure eight is limit handling. In terms of going down the road, the Mercedes drives better. [/COLOR]

Well, 'better' is subjective too obviously. Considering you can get the same safety in the Model S in the base $73,000 version as you can in the top of the line P85+, that is something you can't do since the S550 starts at $92,000 and goes up from there. I actually can't seem to find where the NTHSA has ever tested the S550. Can you point to where it got 5 stars in every category? I'm sure it's a safe car but would be nice to see data.

 

[DaveT]

My review, like all car reviews are 100% subjective. I like car A better than car B. The objective stuff is the numbers. It's the interpretation of the numbers that make things interesting.

I completely understand that car reviews are subjective, but I think it's responsible reporting to share your personal values that go into making that judgement.

For example, in your review did you state that you lean toward comfort/luxury (over performance, handling, tech, etc) and that's a major reason you chose the S550 over the Model S? I think that's important for you to include in your review because as it is stands right now you sound like you're trying to make an objective statement that the S550 is a better car than the Model S, without disclosing your own personal values/biases.

Again, if you said that you lean toward comfort/luxury and that's why you liked the S550 better than the Model S, then I'd have no problems. But even in this thread you've said several times that "apples to apples" "the S550 is the better car", trying to appear like you're objectively comparing both cars based on function and features.

Is the S550 a more luxurious and comfortable car (ie., better freeway car)? No doubt.

Is the S550 a better performing/handling car and more fun to drive? No.

It really depends on your values and what you're looking for in a car. All I'm saying is that rather than try to argue objectively that the S550 is unequivocally the better car over the Model S, you ought to disclose your own personal values and explain why you chose the S550 over the Model S.

 

[jonnylieberman]

Does anyone else find it strange that safety of the person inside the vehicle is considered to be a relevant factor, but the safety of people on the planet by not burning fossil fuels is not a consideration at all?

That's an excellent point. As you may imagine, when you're filming a video you say about 3 hours worth of stuff and it gets edited down to 11 minutes. My intent was to talk at length about that (and I did, it just didn't make the final cut) and I said that if the energy going into a Model S is clean, yay! But if it's dirty, it's dirty and then it's hard to make the environmental argument. I feel that "zero emissions" is a major misnomer. "Possibly Zero Emissions" would be much, much more accurate.



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I actually can't seem to find where the NTHSA has ever tested the S550. Can you point to where it got 5 stars in every category? I'm sure it's a safe car but would be nice to see data.

Yeah, I don't think it's been tested yet. But I'll wager $100 that it's 5 stars in every single category. I wish I could afford to wager more than that.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Oh, you want to play THAT game? Then the Jaguar XJ is better than the Tesla.

I should add that stuff like our figure eight is limit handling. In terms of going down the road, the Mercedes drives better. [/COLOR]

ok then, this game

autocross style race - XJ, Tesla, or Mercedes?

because turns matter and short line acceleration too
at least driving to work without LA traffic, ouch

and cars are made to be driven, right?

 

[dsm363]

That's an excellent point. As you may imagine, when you're filming a video you say about 3 hours worth of stuff and it gets edited down to 11 minutes. My intent was to talk at length about that (and I did, it just didn't make the final cut) and I said that if the energy going into a Model S is clean, yay! But if it's dirty, it's dirty and then it's hard to make the environmental argument. I feel that "zero emissions" is a major misnomer. "Possibly Zero Emissions" would be much, much more accurate.

[/COLOR]

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Yeah, I don't think it's been tested yet. But I'll wager $100 that it's 5 stars in every single category. I wish I could afford to wager more than that.

Then just saying you 'feel' the S class is safer than the Model S and making that part of your review is hard to understand. Is there any objective data (even on the older models which might not apply to the new one I know) that shows the S class is one of the safest cars on the road?

This has been covered a lot in this forum. An EV, even a heavy one like the Model S, is almost always cleaner than an ICE. Especially one as inefficient as the S550. If you gingerly drive the S550 (which, why would you want to) then you'll maybe get 27-30 mpg or so with hypermiling. Even on 100% coal the Model S would be cleaner than that. Unless you are counting the emissions from exploration of oil, drilling of oil, transportation of oil to the refinery, energy used to refine the oil into gas with the resultant pollution and transporting the gas to the gas station then you shouldn't count the pollution from burning the energy to power the EV. To be fair, you need to compare the 'wheel to well' analysis.

 

[Grendal]

Actually, having to design around an engine means less crumple zone so should be less safe. Can any of the engineers up here speak to that?

The Mercedes S class may be the pinnacle of ICE technology but 17mpg in the city doesn't really do it for many people here at least. Give the Model S a few more years to add more features and revise the interior and it will be much tougher to call the S class a 'better' car.

I'm with you on this one. Tesla is still a relatively new company with lots of room to grow. Mercedes has had 100 years to make their car. I don't have big issues with Jonny's review with the exception of the bias due to no home charging. It's hard to beat a car with as much history and experience as the Mercedes. The fact that the Model S comes close in Jonny's mind is a testament to how great a car it is. In subjective terms the EV powertrain of the Model S trumps the ICE powertrain without question for all of us. In Jonny's mind that becomes a more minor issue.

I feel that "zero emissions" is a major misnomer. "Possibly Zero Emissions" would be much, much more accurate.

I like to say "zero emissions from the car" which is accurate and can lead to a discussion of energy generation.

 

[walla2]

the Jaguar XJ is better than the Tesla.

The P85 is just as fast and more fun than the XJR. Plus no gas and the torque is there at every moment without that lag shifting. Will they service your Jag at home? What's the Jag do in the safety tests or youtube? Not even tested. The complete car wins.

 

[jonnylieberman]

because turns matter and short line acceleration too

I'd say the aluminum (lighter) Jaguar XJR would smoke both cars in an autocross. Our figure eight test is a pretty good approximation of an autocross (kinda) minus a stop box. But it tests accel, braking, turn in, steady state cornering and corner exit. All the while steering feel, transmission, throttle response -- you name it -- is also being evaluated. It all happens around a 1600 foot course.

And.. I just looked it up. 24.8 seconds for the big Jag -- same as the Model S. I've driven both and I prefer how the Jag drives at the limit, but that's subjective.

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. Even on 100% coal the Model S would be cleaner than that. Unless you are counting the emissions from exploration of oil, drilling of oil, transportation of oil to the refinery, energy used to refine the oil into gas with the resultant pollution and transporting the gas to the gas station then you shouldn't count the pollution from burning the energy to power the EV. To be fair, you need to compare the 'wheel to well' analysis.

So you're not counting the exploration, mining, transportation, etc of coal? Seems an odd emission.

but again, I love how clean the Tesla is. Never said I didn't.

 

[Electroman]

I am not going to comment or dispute many of the points made by Jonny, but I take complete exception to two things :

- range anxiety on a daily commute ?? Really ? I can't believe a 200 mile range on the worst of conditions is not good enough ?

- plugging in a 120v plug and getting disappointed is completely not fair. No Model S owner should even consider not installing a minimum of 40 amp 240V plug. And that plug is a one time installment and I predict in the near future all garages will have one or more such plugs.

 

[dsm363]

So you're not counting the exploration, mining, transportation, etc of coal? Seems an odd emission.

but again, I love how clean the Tesla is. Never said I didn't.

I am counting that. I'm saying most people when they compare EVs to ICEs count the burning of fossil fuels against the EV and then the gas magically appears in the gas tank. They compare the emissions from burning gas against the emissions from electricity generation and not the entire picture. I have no delusions that driving an EV has no environmental impact.

The point is very few places are 100% coal anyway. National average is around 40% I believe and dropping rapidly because of natural gas. Here in Pacific Northwest we are almost completely hydroelectric. An EV will only get cleaner as the grid improves. The ICE will never get cleaner.

 

[Canuck]

... if the energy going into a Model S is clean, yay! But if it's dirty, it's dirty and then it's hard to make the environmental argument.

No. It's not at all. It's very easy to make the argument, even if the car is supplied by 100% coal burning electricity! Ignorance on this subject is one thing, but to present false information is unacceptable. There's too much at stake!

I find it quite sad that your job is to review cars but you don't take the necessary time required to educate yourself on this subject. Here's a start for you. Check the references and studies at the end. This is science. It's not subjective opinions. If you still maintain your position as stated above after reading the science please let us know:

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/electric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf

PS. In BC, much like Washington State, our power mostly from renewables (i.e. hydroelectric). Here's the graph for Washington State:

http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WA

100% coal is, in fact, a misnomer when you average out the US electricity sources. But even at 100% you are 100% WRONG! Now apologize and give the award to the Model S!

 

[CHGolferJim]

Very entertaining thread. Jonny, if you had plugged the S into a dryer socket instead of a 110V plug, you would have had >200 miles of range in the morning. To have used the 110V was either woefully ignorant of the details of the car's m.o., or some kind of journalistic contrivance to score a point with unknowledgeable readers.

 

[CHARGER]

Jonny, thanks for all the free advertising for TESLA!