Ask Me Anything -- Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman Defends Picking the Benz

[Todd Burch]

Jonny,

First, thanks for posting here.

Regarding your range story:

With all due respect, your concern is merely from lack of experience driving an EV and being stuck in the old mindset of fueling.

Mistake #1 was getting in the car with 75 miles of range and thinking of that as typical. What is typical for a Model S is that every morning (or whenever you get in your car to drive) you typically start with a full or nearly full "tank" and never think of range.

Mistake #2 was thinking that you needed to turn off the air conditioning. A/C actually doesn't use that much additional power--especially once it's cooled the cabin down initially, and even more so if your windows are tinted. You would've made it home fine had you left the A/C on.

Mistake #3 was plugging into 110 V. That's like going to a gas station and hooking a gasoline IV drip to an ICE car. Typical Model S drivers plug into a 240V 50A circuit (at least).

None of these 3 things is typical. In fact, all three are exceedingly rare. So to use that experience as a judgement of range anxiety is just chickening out.

Range anxiety is pretty real. That said, I know it's going to get better.

Funny how those of us who actually live with the car day in and day out are the ones claiming it's not. If it really were, why do you think we would all be defending it?

Seriously...think about a real work day for yourself. How many mikes do you drive?

My commute is like yours. 40 miles and one hour each way. Half of that is freeway driving at 70-75 mph. I usually finish my day with 120-140 miles of range left. I have 29,000 miles and 17 months of ownership...and I've never, ever even had less than 22 miles of range left on my car. I've taken my car on several road trips for work...and it's just not a big issue. Plus the fuel is frickin' free!

 

[jonnylieberman]

Very entertaining thread. Jonny, if you had plugged the S into a dryer socket instead of a 110V plug, you would have had >200 miles of range in the morning. To have used the 110V was either woefully ignorant of the details of the car's m.o., or some kind of journalistic contrivance to score a point with unknowledgeable readers.

Oh jesus christ. It was neither. It was me charging the car at a house I moved into three weeks earlier. And I don't have a dryer socket. I have natural gas.

 

[Todd Burch]

Besides, when you floor a Tesla (like I explained) you have to do accounting -- is this going to affect my life?

I gun it all the time and never once have I worried about this. The high power output happens over such a short period of time (you get into the speed limit range so quickly) that it's not a huge difference. If you're doing this enough to make a significant difference, you must be on a track...at least hopefully not on a public road.

And the same thing happens in a gas car, it's just not typically so in-your-face with a big digital range indicator.

 

[dsm363]

I think a more fair review in my mind would say 'I value a premium interior, fit and finish, and overall interior styling more than anything. The S class Mercedes beats the Model S easily in this category. Given that the performance under 100 mph is similar between the two cars, I'll call this a tie. While the model S wins hands-down from a efficiency, environmental, and user interface perspective I value the interior materials and fit and finish of the S class Mercedes more and therefore give it the win'

 

[TSLAopt]

Funny how those of us who actually live with the car day in and day out are the ones claiming it's not. If it really were, why do you think we would all be defending it?

THIS 100% regarding range anxiety

 

[jonnylieberman]

I gun it all the time and never once have I worried about this. The high power output happens over such a short period of time (you get into the speed limit range so quickly) that it's not a huge difference. If you're doing this enough to make a significant difference, you must be on a track...at least hopefully not on a public road.

And the same thing happens in a gas car, it's just not typically so in-your-face with a big digital range indicator.

Oh, you're asking me to be logical? Good luck!!

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THIS 100% regarding range anxiety

People tend to defend their purchases, especially their $100K ones.

Though, we know a guy here who ran out of electricity with Model S and gave it to his wife. He went out and bought an S-Class. What about his experience reaction? Less valid because it's different than what you experienced?

 

[qwk]

Hmm. Well, let me tell you about the week I had. We had the car at the test track. Sure, no one ever goes to the test track. But let's just call it an unexpected trip. Anyhow, I got in the car with an indicated 75-mile range and I had a 45-mile commute home in 90-degree weather. Of course, going three miles to the freeway ate up 6 miles of range. Getting on the freeway hurt the range, running AC, turn signals, etc. I sat there moving at 63-degrees with the cruise control set, sweating and miserable. I made it home with 18 miles of range left. To me this is worse than what you described about the gas gauge being on a quarter tank. Los Angeles is, after all, littered with gas stations. I plugged the car in at 3:00 pm to 110 volts (I don't own an electric car -- I should, but don't have a charger at my house) and the next morning at 8:00 am I was SHOCKED to discover that I'd gained 27-miles of range. I had an appointment at 11:00 am. But I needed range. So, I decided to go down to the Supercharger station (25-miles from my house) and fill'er up. Leaving the station, I hit traffic and missed my appointment.

I suppose my point is that if your life isn't regimented, range anxiety is pretty real. That said, I know it's going to get better.

First off, much respect to you for coming here and hopping into this pool of piranhas. Having said that, nobody with any common sense is going to whine about running out of gas when they start out on E. Very basic brainpower avoids this scenario. Why do it with an electric car? Every house has a range or dryer outlet, there is really no excuse for not filling the car up before use.

 

[walla2]

Jonny, thanks for your replies. I was just trying to liven things up. Very enjoyable and glad you like both rides overall. I have my pick, and you have yours.

 

[dsm363]

Oh jesus christ. It was neither. It was me charging the car at a house I moved into three weeks earlier. And I don't have a dryer socket. I have natural gas.

Did you qualify that in your review though? That's what people have a problem with. The fact that you complained about the range affecting your daily routine when you only charged up with a 120 V outlet which as about a dozen owners have said here isn't typical.

 

[AudubonB]

Okay, now I have to give you, JL, credit not only for showing up here, but for sticking to your guns. That's impressive!

Two points from me that are slightly in line with what some here - like dsm33's queries - have brought up:

1. Can you (OR ANYONE ELSE HERE) provide details of the S550's record in real-life auto accidents? It's a fairly safe assumption that all active members on this board are extremely familiar with how the Model S has fared. If we can compare those data, then we can go above and beyond what the NHTSA provided, and could create a true comparison of how safe the two vehicles are.

2. Any discussion regarding the cleanliness of a vehicle has to take into consideration the vastly more efficient a stationary, high-output power plant is than X * 10^y number of mobile, minuscule power plants are (that's an electric generating station versus a fleet of automobiles). Without that being factored in, it is easy to improperly skew the numbers against EVs.

 

[Todd Burch]

Jonny, thanks again. i think we're all enjoying this thread .

Regarding an engine helping to absorb energy in a crash and perhaps being safer: as a mechanical engineer with a strong physics background, i have to completely disagree with you there. And anyone with a similar science background would agree with me.

People tend to defend their purchases, especially their $100K ones.

And then there are rational people like me who took three years to deeply research their purchase, to find that range anxiety just isn't an issue. And after 29,000 miles and 17 months, I still believe that. If I were driving a Leaf, then based on my lifestyle I'd have range anxiety. For the Model S, the range is an issue for maybe 2% of the population...maybe less. Based on your 45 mile commute, Don't think you'd be in that 2%, even if you drove like a bat out of hell. It's a different mindset--full tank at the start of every day man!

 

[TSLAopt]

I think one day (if not today) you will look back and realize you were wrong in your decision and maybe subconsciously were looking for attention by going against the grain of most other legitimate reviewers/comparisons (even MotorTrend)...especially wrong about the safety thing.

I wonder if you will have the guts to come back on here and admit it though...it is honorable for you to volunteer your time to defend your controversial pick on here...but it would be much more honorable if when you realize you were wrong that you come back on here and state that.

as for all of us Tesla owners...you will find out if we were wrong or not by how many of us stay Tesla customers and buy new Tesla's for our next car instead of the new S class.

 

[Todd Burch]

A few more points:

Many, many studies have shown that electrics are far cleaner than even the cleanest gas or hybrid counterpart. It's just science--there's no debating it. (And yes, this includes the energy well to wheel for power generation and for petroleum).

Second, I think the only real metric that is important with respect to safety is deaths per mile. We know that currently, Model S has 0 deaths for almost 300 million miles driven. And we've seen some seriously hefty Model S accidents, I wonder what the metric is for the S550?

In the end, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. If you think the S550 is a better car, fine--you're entitled to that. Just don't let lack of knowledge (cleanliness of electric vs. ICE, having an engine contributing to crash safety, feeling the need to turn off the A/C, or worried about turn signal energy consumption) or an atypical experience (range anxiety using a 110V outlet and starting out with your tank 25% full) bias that opinion or allow such myths to propagate.

 

[napabill]

I will echo what the others have said, thanks for coming by. A class move. Doubt we'll see Mandel from Autoweek showing up.

My garage currently has a 2008 S550 (102,000 miles) and a 2012 Tesla S85 (24,000 miles). I think I can speak from experience regarding both cars. We love the S550, have since we took delivery. A wonderful touring sedan, which we've used throughout Europe and the United States. Love it. Paid about $105,000 for it in 2007. But for daily driving, the Tesla always gets the nod. A full "tank" every morning from our 40 amp plug, and way more fun to drive than the MB. After the still available tax credits we paid $75,000 for the S85.

With the SuperCharger build-out, we now are able to use the Tesla for selected road trips. While it may take 10% longer in elapsed time, it is a much more relaxing activity. And, the energy is free.

Like you I love both cars, but feel the $30,000 price difference firmly puts the Tesla in the winners circle. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!:smile:

 

[dsm363]

The S550 I'm sure is an amazing ICE car but it's an ICE with all the advantages and drawbacks.

Jonny: you never answered the question about your daily driving and how often you drive more than 200-250 miles a day.

 

[spentan]

As a forum member, who moved from Australia to USA to buy a P85 Model S (still looking for a job here haha), for $75k,

I have driven the S550 (2014 rented from Enterprise Exotic for a day).

I agree completely that the Interior is miles above the Tesla. And I do miss Adaptive cruise (and the other active safety features).

I think that going up against the best carmaker (M-B) and their flagship (S-Class) is a testament to Tesla themselves.

If the Tesla didn't exist, the S550 would be sitting in my garage right now.

But the fact that I already have the P85,
at the price I paid,
with software updates and other technological benefits the Tesla has,
and the supercharger network (I've driven 8000 miles in 10 weeks) without spending a dollar on gas,
and never being "range anxious".

All leads to the fact that I think the Tesla is the better car.

But I think you should be entitled to your opinion Jonny, I look forward to a Model S Refresh/Model X launch and to see whether the opinion is the same.

The Model S is technically about 2 years old. The S550 is brand new.

Regarding your "Ask me Anything", What is your opinion regarding the 2012 S550 vs the 2012 Model S (basically the same as the 2014 Model S)?

 

[ecarfan]

Hmm. Well, let me tell you about the week I had. We had the car at the test track. Sure, no one ever goes to the test track. But let's just call it an unexpected trip. Anyhow, I got in the car with an indicated 75-mile range and I had a 45-mile commute home in 90-degree weather...
I suppose my point is that if your life isn't regimented, range anxiety is pretty real. That said, I know it's going to get better.

Johnny, I truly appreciate you showing up here and defending your review, which I watched.

That said...get real man! In real life 99.99% of car owners never drive on a test track! And 99% of EV owners plug their car in every night and wake up with a "full tank". It's just so bloody easy!

I work in neurosurgical cases at multiple hospitals in an 80 mile radius from my house and my schedule is extremely unpredictable. I have had my Model S for 6 months and I have ZERO range anxiety. I have driven it from the SF Bay Area to Orange County and back and it was a piece of cake. Right now I am staying in a cottage near Yosemite National Park and it was a no-brainer drive from my house, and I am charging from a 40 amp L6-20 plug at my destination. Simple. My cost for "fuel" for this trip will be a few dollars.

The longer you own a Model S the less you are concerned about the range and charging, it becomes second nature to plan ahead for long trips and in daily life you just don't even think about it.

I understand why you mentioned your own personal range anxiety in your video but you neglected to talk to Model S owners who had their car for more than a week. Your review was quite unbalanced on the issue of range.

As to the MB having a nicer interior and more fancy self driving features, that's obvious. Guess what: the worlds oldest continuously operating car company and one of the most respected ever is obviously going to have those features compared to what the world's newest viable automotive startup has been able to incorporate into their first mass production car model that they have been building for less than two years!

Your review failed to make clear that it is simply mind-blowing to be able to consider the Model S as serious competition to the finest Mercedes currently being made. The many areas where the S excels over the MB -- which have already been enumerated by many others here -- make it clearly the superior vehicle overall.

ICE vehicles will be relegated to the dustbin of history in my lifetime (I just turned 60) and Tesla will be responsible.

I have owned Porsches and Lexus and a broad range of cars. I'm never buying an ICE again. They are just so last century...

 

[jonnylieberman]

Two more points:

Many, many studies have shown that electrics are far cleaner than even the cleanest gas or hybrid counterpart. It's just science--there's no debating it. (And yes, this includes the energy well to wheel for power generation and for petroleum).

I'm not debating it!! And if you REALLY cared about the environment, you'd be driving a Nissan Leaf!

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Regarding your "Ask me Anything", What is your opinion regarding the 2012 S550 vs the 2012 Model S (basically the same as the 2014 Model S)?

You're talking the W221, last gen S-Class versus the Model S. The Tesla is a better car. The old S-Class was good, but missing the special sauce of the W222.

 

[dsm363]

I'm not debating it!! And if you REALLY cared about the environment, you'd be driving a Nissan Leaf!

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You're talking the W221, last gen S-Class versus the Model S. The Tesla is a better car. The old S-Class was good, but missing the special sauce of the W222.

This speaks volumes as to why your review ended up they way it did. I could say the same uniformed thing. If you really cared about national security you'd drive an EV but that would be ludicrous.

You can care about the environment and drive and EV or an ICE. You didn't address the fact that you are wrong about the Model S being more polluting and most ICEs which it isn't.

 

[jerjozwik]

most popular thread on teslamotorsclub today.