Ask Me Anything -- Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman Defends Picking the Benz

[rlawson4]

Jonny: I have 38,000 miles on my model S since December 2012. It's driven 100-180 miles all the time. I admit I am not an aggressive driver. I appreciate your review and have no reason to doubt your assessment of some of the advantages to the Mercedes. However, you should consider one factor in your overall assessment. I would never have even considered a vehicle in this price range before buying the Model S. I have never test driven nor even been in a Mercedes. I drove a Fusion Hybrid and my wife has a Mariner Hybrid. So, the most significant thing I can say about the Model S is that I purchased a vehicle in a price range that far exceeded my ordinary price point of $30,000 - $35,000. I went into a price point 3X my comfort level because of the Model S. I am not alone. Several buyers I know did the same. Thanks for your review and responding on here.

 

[jerry33]

I've driven over 24,000 miles since Mar 2, 2013. I had once instance of range anxiety--and that wasn't so much fear of running out as fear of having to stop at a slow public charging facility.

It happened on the last leg of coming home from a vacation trip where the distance was 220 miles on the map, but a wrong turn made it 250 miles and there were strong headwinds all the way. As it turned out I made it with 17 miles of rated range (19 miles projected range on the graph). Comparing the projected range vs. rated miles vs. distance remaining shows how you are doing, and lets you plan. Had the projected miles gone lower than the rated miles /distance remaining I would have stopped for 30 minutes at a public charging station and picked up a few.

In every other instance, even a bad snow day where I was slogging through range eating slush, I've never even came close, and although my commute is only 50 miles, I often drive 200 miles or more on a weekend day.

My conclusions after a year's driving are:
1) Range anxiety is not a concern once you get the car.
2) Not having to stop at a gas station or give money to the oil companies is wonderful.
3) Not having to use dealer service is great. Tesla service is the best car service I've ever had.
4) No way will I ever go back to a gas car with the vibrations, heat, and smell.

 

[purplewalt]

That's the confusing part. How could you review this car for the award and over the last year not discover that charging on a 120V outlet is slow. He said he was SHOCKED! to find that out the next morning.

I think you nailed it...
Perhaps when they (the writers/drivers) tested the car in 2013, there were staff members ("handlers") what took care of everything like fuel for traditional ICE cars, and fully charged the batteries on all the electric cars, tire pressure for all cars, coolant levels, etc. They were "full" all the time, so the MO to the Testers went something like: "go do your testing and review".
Then the reviewers just tested each car, but didn't get into the logistics of what it took to have a full battery in the morning (everybody already knows how a gas pump works).
And we as MS owners have been educated to KNOW that 110V will work (in a pinch), but is an exceeding slow charging rate.
A NEMA 14-50 outlet at home will solve almost anyone's charging criteria overnight.

IMHO, it is a stunning oversight on Jonny's part to "assume" that a 110 V outlet that he had at his house would provide adequate power for the MS.
This information (about different types of outlets and charging rates) is available on TM's website, and it would take very little genuine effort on his part to become informed enough about the logistics of day-to-day charging and operation PRIOR to actually doing the review.
He simply neglected to inform himself.
For him to use that as part of his basis to downgrade the MS rating for the test is his error.

Journalist/writers [do] know how to drive ICE cars, they just don't seem to want to spend any gray-matter time learning some of the finer points of EVs, like charging.
And then he further embarrassed himself by claiming range anxiety.

 

[youlikeadajuice]

One thing I find decidedly un-luxurious about the Mercedes is having to take it to the dirty, stinky gas station. I can't fathom what it would be like to step out of that plush interior and stand outside in the rain or cold or whatever, grab the pump handle that has god knows what on it and breathe fumes while I wait. I don't miss that one bit. While I was waiting the 10 months between making my reservation and receiving my Model S, I knew in my head that I wouldn't have to go the gas station anymore, but I didn't fully appreciate what that meant until I actually had it. As others have stated, there is nothing better than waking up in the morning to a full tank...every single morning. I find that extremely luxurious. No longer do I get the "range anxiety" I had in the ICE..."Do I stop tonight to fill up, or wait til morning? Will I have time if I wait til morning?". To me, THAT is range anxiety.

A note on the interior as well. I fully understand and appreciate that different people have different tastes, but to me, the interior buttons and lights on the Mercedes just seem gaudy. Those terrible lights remind me of the "mood lighting" in some tacky limousine...I would feel like a teenager on prom night driving around in that thing, and not in a good way. Just not classy. The crisp and simple interior of the Model S is easy to use and I find it extremely elegant. In fact, I find the simple lighting under the armrests in the Model S to be much better looking than the hot-tub-esque lighting of the Mercedes.

I'll agree that the seats in the Model S could use improvement, and there is room for improvement as far as the availability of certain features, but Tesla has already been steadily offering new features since the initial cars were delivered, and no doubt will offer many more soon.

 

[dsm363]

Elon has even said the seats are not up to par. I do hope they address that.

 

[Pilot_51]

No longer do I get the "range anxiety" I had in the ICE..."Do I stop tonight to fill up, or wait til morning? Will I have time if I wait til morning?". To me, THAT is range anxiety.

This.

For someone who has, until next month, only driven ICE vehicles, I very much dislike filling up at the gas station. I've run my brother's car well into the red because I didn't want to go out of my way to the stinky/hazardous gas station to spend $60 for a car I don't normally drive (typically 12 miles one day a week, rest is carpool). I told him he had to fill it up in the morning, but he said he had to leave really early when the gas station isn't open, so he made me fill it up just before the gas station closed around 11pm. Fortunately he let me use his gas card. I did pretty much the same thing with the family car once and got away with making the next driver fill it up.

So yes, range anxiety very much exists (arguably more so) with ICE vehicles, only a different kind caused by not wanting to go through the inconvenient process of filling up.

 

[Dutchie]

I would say the S-Class trumps the Model S in terms of safety. I know people like to tout the "5.4 stars" (whatever that means) that the Model S got, but the Benz actively avoids accidents. It also does all it can to mitigate accidents and injury.

I find driving an EV much safer than an ICE. With an EV you have so much more control of the car. It does what it wants you to do, instantly. Sometimes when overtaking you just need that instant power when you misjudged a certain situation. With an ICE you might have it in the wrong gear, losing valuable scary seconds.
Also when braking, lift your foot of the accelerator and the car immediately start to brake (regenerative). With an ICE you just coast, unless you put it in a lower gear.

That control you have over the car is such a valuable tool.

 

[ryanjm]

After being out of town all week, I just read through this entire thread. Wow!

Jonny, speaking as a fellow member of the enthusiast media (in my case it's video games, though we do cover tech and I did review the Model S from a gadget perspective last summer), I applaud you for coming into this forum and engaging the Tesla community. Most in your position wouldn't have taken the time or energy to do so.

However, it's clear that while many of the responses in here were calm and reasoned, you seem to have let some of the more pointed and accusatory comments get to you, and I think it undercut the original, well-intentioned reason you came in here in the first place. I've been there myself (believe me, the Sony vs. Microsoft video game war generates some of the foulest discourse on the entire Internet), and we're all only human.

You've made it clear in some of your follow-up posts that you recognize the Model S's many strengths, and some of the things you call out on the car are valid concerns that folks who aren't completely immersed in the Tesla world the way we are would naturally point out. As others here have noted, just to have Model S even be chosen to go toe-to-toe with Mercedes' flagship sedan in a comparison like this is high praise unto itself for the Tesla.

I do hope you've gained a few valuable insights into the Model S during the course of this discussion that will help you and the Motor Trend team better cover Tesla's vehicles moving forward.

Thanks again for stopping by. Don't be a stranger if you'd ever like to talk Tesla again!

 

[Dan5]

While you cited safety for the Mercedes and how people in China ignore the safety features in the back seats (seat belts). I don't believe that is a valid argument since any safety feature, or most safety features can be over ridden. Same could be said for American drivers, I don't have my radio blasting at 11, but some people do; for the lane changing beeping- well, you can't really hear that if you have the stereo tuned up all the way.

At the end of the day, the safest car is going to be the car that has the lowest amount of injuries or deaths per car. Accidents happen, all the safety features in a car is not going to prevent an 18 wheeler from slamming into the back of your car at a red light, nor will it stop another driver from side swiping you, nor will it stop a head on collision due to another driver's negligence, nor will it stop a person from running a red light and t-boning your car, nor a moose coming out and hitting your car last second.

So far in the Model S, there have been some pretty horrific accidents that many other car drivers would not have survived, let along walk away from unscratched.

 

[dsm363]

If beeping and extending rear seat belts is used as justification for it being a safer car, I'm wondering how Jonny would feel if Mercedes would implement other safety related reminders to encourage safety. You could have the car start beeping louder and louder the more you went over the local speed limit to encourage obeying the speed limit. How about the car simply doesn't start unless all seat belts with occupants are secure? I'm sure you could come up with all kinds of annoying nudges towards safety.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Jonny,

Thanks for taking the time to come on here and share your thoughts. Nothing wrong about liking another car better than the Model S, especially one that has been the pinnacle of luxury for decades. Really says something that Tesla, with its first sedan, can even compare.

One thing it sounds like you missed with your time with the Model S is the one thing I like about it better than any other car - the fact that I can "fill up" to 260+ miles of range every night at home while I sleep. Coming out to a car every morning completely full, more than anything else, is what I see as game changing with the Model S. That's the one thing you can't do with the Mercedes - fill it up at home. After living with that for a few weeks you'll never want to go back. Trust me.

 

[NoMoGas]

Yeah, I don't think it's been tested yet. But I'll wager $100 that it's 5 stars in every single category. I wish I could afford to wager more than that.

I'll take that bet and even spot you the $100. If by that bet we mean that the Tesla EXCEEDS OVERALL Safety rating. The way you ignored everyone calling you out on your range anxiety nonsense and constant repetition of "... is a better car" as if if you repeat it enough times it makes it true reduces you from credible journalist seeking engagement to troll.

Tesla has ZERO serious or fatal accidents. ZERO. It is not possible to be safer then that unless your cherished 550 has healing powers to which I say start it up in the garage and let me know how that works out for you. Now let me run the Tesla in the garage... oh yea..

 

[Lerxt]

Fully respect your right to your opinion. I agree that Tesla's Model S really needs refinement befitting the price of the car, on the interior.

 

[tdelta1000]

First off... Hello Johnny and I understand why you selected the S550 over the Model S. The S 550 has a storied pedigree of being some of the most coveted automobiles and the Model S is the new kid on the block with all the right stuff.

Here's my summation of your review:
Cost - They both are over 100K
Weight - Advantage Model S
Options - S550
Interior - Driver's preference- Old World interior design or a Modern South Beach look
Suspension Ride - S550: the German version of a Caddy
Range - S550
Cost of Ownership - Model S
Excitement Factor - Model S
Safety - Model S



In closing both cars are nice in their own right but I would have selected the Model S because of the overall offering going from a blank sheet, to vaporware, to concept, to redesign, to world beater and a history maker. Keep posting and i'm looking forward to seeing more of your posts.

 

[EdA]

I would say the S-Class trumps the Model S in terms of safety. I know people like to tout the "5.4 stars" (whatever that means) that the Model S got, but the Benz actively avoids accidents. It also does all it can to mitigate accidents and injury. For instance, when you close the rear doors, the rear buckles extend. May not seem like much, but most people in China (the only car market on earth larger than ours) don't wear rear belts, and most Chinese buyers than can afford an S-Class are driven. This small thing will save lives. Another example, in the event of a rear collision, the S-Class cinches all the seat belts, vents the windows and locks up the brakes (turns out it's safer to let the crash structure absorb the full impact rather than having the car move forward -- counterintuitive but apparently true). The S-Class also has radar cruise that can not only fully brake the car, but can choose how it brakes based on if it's looking at a car or a person. If the car thinks it's going to hit a person, it goes into a full panic stop mode.

Anyhow, the Tesla isn't safer.

Your other points are all true, though you left out that the Mercedes is nicer to drive, has better seats, is built better (a few things didn't make the video but that red car I drove was glitchy) and apples to apples is just plain more desirable, a HUGE factor when it comes to car purchasing, especially at the $125K price point, where people are buying things they certainly don't need.

One story -- at the beginning of the video we had both cars parked in the garage for my stand up introduction. Just before were started filming there were four guys in their 20s in the garage just before we started filming. You'd think that "the kids" would all be geeking out over the Tesla, but in fact three of them wouldn't get out of the S-Class. The interior is that good.

OK, Jonny:

Q1: Have you taken a passenger for a ride in a Mercedes Benz and had them laughing for minutes after the ride?

 

[JRP3]

I think Johnny has left the building at this point.

 

[artsci]

I know that Jonny has left the building but I want to suggest this safety test.

Jonny, park the S-Class in your garage, close the garage door, and turn on the engine. And stay in the car. Run a stop watch to see how long you survive. This great, highly praised car emits poison that kills living things. Then multiple that by the millions of cars on the road. If you're rational, you'd conclude that all ICE's are engines of death on a global scale. It's just a slow death. This is why auto journalists have to start being accountable for the damage being done by fossil fuel powered vehicles.

 

[doctorwho]

Its great that a Model S is being compared to an S Class Merc. At the end of the day each are different and it comes down to preference, if he prefers a S Class - fine by me.

 

[dsm363]

Watching the Motor Week review of the S550. They for 0-60 in 5 seconds. Why wasn't the fact that it has a perfume atomizer mentioned in the S550 vs Model S review? That changes everything

 

[Shumdit]

Guys, We can't blame Jonny. Not only is he biased from his years of testing ICE vehicles , but he comes from a long line of stubborn journalists. I came across this blurb in an article written by Johnny's Great-Great Grandfather Jochaim Lierbermann (not sure why they dropped the second "n", but maybe it also shows his German bias). It was in a 1902 printing of Horse and Buggy annual (not much progress meant not much need for frequent updates) that he was a contributor for. He was comparing his trusty steed to a new fangled horseless carriage called the Oldsmobile Curved Dash. Basically his points were that his current mode of transportation self-fueled every evening in the field beside his homestead, could last 20 years easily with little upkeep and made little noise or pollution, other than methane and fertilizer. He saw the horseless carriage as a niche fad that would be dead by 1905.


I have owned previously (and still own one at the moment but its for sale) a Mercedes and I have been in the new S class. Here is what I can tell you about my experience with Mercedes. Reliability? Good for a few years. I highly suggest you sell while its still under warranty though. Jonny really likely only sees these cars in those ideal conditions. Resale? Pretty bad, but in this price class that's sort of a given. If a $20000 car loses half it's value, that's $10000. If a $100000 car does the same? The new S class isn't pretty. The inside is nice, much like some of the newest BMW, Audi, Range Rover, etc. I have been in. The new S class is a big step up in luxury, but its almost more of a gimmicky type of luxury in some ways. Perfumed interior/changing interior colors (hello Ford Mustang from the last decade)/hot stone massage? Neat in the short term, but the gimmick will wear off in a year or so. That's true of many gimmicky features like the closing dash vents Jag used, the speakers that rise out of the dash on some Audi models, etc. it will sell the car but won't be relevant long term.
Mercedes service is also badly overpriced and they make you feel as if you should be thankful they will work on your car. Tesla blows them out of the water in this regard.
History usually shows us a car that is not well received from a styling standpoint initially but then is accepted as people become used to it ends up being a dog in the long view. See the Bangle Butt 7 series, the W210 Mercedes, etc. This version of the S class likely will not age well from a styling perspective.
I did like the S class very much, but the next time I drove the Model S I was reminded why I liked it over the S class (and pretty much every other car I can recall) as much as I do. It's not just one thing. It's the whole package. There is 100% proof that there is room for improvement with the Model S. I don't think Jonny dislikes the Model S at all but his lack of using it like he would if he owned it and his familiarity with the ICE experience along with those gimmicks being especially appealing to him (shiny headlights anyone) is topped off with his disregard for long term costs of ownership (service, repairs, depreciation, fueling costs) and makes it his "better car". In the same sense he would choose Courtney Stodden or Kim Kardashian over Sandra Bullock or Jennifer Garner.