Assistance for Coal Miners and Coal Industry Workers

[nwdiver]

Those communities are already destroyed, by lack of work. I am not willing to destroy the planet just so WV can have some poor people.

Neither am I... I'm not advocating for a return of the coal industry. But the forced displacement of thousands of people isn't exactly a very positive option either.

There are other options... sadly the 'easy' solutions aren't popular and the popular solutions are next to impossible.

It's very likely that uprooting thousands of families will be a temporary solution to a permanent problem. In a decade or two those families will be worse off than they are now. The jobs in Solar and Wind won't last either. Just like every other industry output will rise as labour requirements fall putting more and more people out of work.

 

[electracity]

It's very likely that uprooting thousands of families will be a temporary solution to a permanent problem. In a decade or two those families will be worse off than they are now.

How do you think the planet was populated by humans? Why do you think white europeans came to north america? By your logic humans would be better off hunkering down in a portion of sub saharan africa.

 

[nwdiver]

How do you think the planet was populated by humans? Why do you think white europeans came to north america? By your logic humans would be better off hunkering down in a portion of sub saharan africa.

LOL... nomadic people didn't have to sacrifice ~100% of their net worth to move... there was no such thing as 'net worth'... are you really trying to compare a hunter gatherer society to modern life? Really? If that's the case then good news... they don't need a 'job' they can just move up to the hills and life off the land like our out of Africa ancestors

 

[SageBrush]

I'd like to start a discussion about what kind of assistance should be in place for coal miners and coal industry workers as coal is phased out.

Off-hand, I say NONE. NOTHING

Just like every other industry that gets replaced by better technology.
I hope for the workers sake that they avail themselves of existing job retraining programs, but that is up to them.

 

[electracity]

LOL... nomadic people didn't have to sacrifice ~100% of their net worth to move... there was no such thing as 'net worth'... are you really trying to compare a hunter gatherer society to modern life? Really? If that's the case then good news... they don't need a 'job' they can just move up to the hills and life off the land like our out of Africa ancestors

Is that how your family came to north america? Hunter gatherers who crossed the bering strait land bridge during the last ice age?

My ancestor immigrated due to lack of job opportunities in Europe. By boat. Presumably without hunting and gathering.

 

[nwdiver]

Is that how your family came to north america? Hunter gatherers who crossed the bering strait land bridge during the last ice age?

My ancestor immigrated due to lack of job opportunities in Europe. By boat. Presumably without hunting and gathering.

There's a HUGE difference between members of a community seeking opportunity voluntarily and basically disbanding a community involuntarily.

 

[ggies07]

Why could you not retrain them to work in the clean energy sector.

Yep. That's what I think should be done, and it can! All for as little as a coal CEO's one year salary.

One Year of Coal CEO Pay Could Retrain Every US Miner to Work in the Solar Industry

In states with the most coal jobs, many workers could be retrained for the growing solar PV industry -- some at a cost of just a few thousand dollars. For many coal companies, even those filing for bankruptcy, the cost of retraining all employees would be less than a year’s pay for the CEO.

 

[electracity]

disbanding a community involuntarily

Disbanding? Perhaps you mean Infantilizing. Coal Miners can put on their big boy pants and do what they need to do to improve their lives, or join the local opioid cohort. My son in law's father is Irish and was a coal miner. He has had plenty of job opportunities, but he had to move.

Whether it is in Appalachia, or in the hood, or on the res, some people choose to do. Some choose to not do.

 

[nwdiver]

Disbanding? Perhaps you mean Infantilizing. Coal Miners can put on their big boy pants and do what they need to do to improve their lives, or join the local opioid cohort. My son in law's father is Irish and was a coal miner. He has had plenty of job opportunities, but he had to move.

Whether it is in Appalachia, or in the hood, or on the res, some people choose to do. Some choose to not do.

There's two different objectives here and in some ways they're mutually exclusive. The miners and their communities. Can the miners be re-employed in other parts of the county? Yes. Can the miners be re-employed without destroying their communities? No.

Hillary promised to help save the miners. Trump promised to help save their communities. Who won?

I'm in no way suggesting that Trump can fulfill his promise... I'm pretty sure it's just another one of him many many lies. My point is that we need a plan that can save their communities. Solar and Wind jobs won't accomplish that.

Perhaps a good subtitle for this thread would be assistance for coal mining communities...

 

[cpa]

How can we save these tiny communities in this day and age? Even in relatively well-off communities, Main Street has dried up. No more local retailers. No more cobblers, general repair shops, or other small merchants who catered to the locals. Those individuals provided valued goods and services that supported these communities. Now it is Wal-Mart, Amazon, or a day's journey to the city to take care of business. Medical and legal professionals have bolted from these areas too.

About all that remains are bars, convenience stores, gas stations, and the like. I do not think that bringing jobs to rural West Virginia will restore these communities. Owners of small businesses are not going to risk investing in inventory, real estate and payroll because they are doomed to failure.

Small businesses that provided necessary goods and services were the grease that made these communities thrive. Until we figure out how to revitalize Main Street, we might as well write these communities off. They ain't never coming back.

 

[nativewolf]

There's two different objectives here and in some ways they're mutually exclusive. The miners and their communities. Can the miners be re-employed in other parts of the county? Yes. Can the miners be re-employed without destroying their communities? No.

Hillary promised to help save the miners. Trump promised to help save their communities. Who won?

I'm in no way suggesting that Trump can fulfill his promise... I'm pretty sure it's just another one of him many many lies. My point is that we need a plan that can save their communities. Solar and Wind jobs won't accomplish that.

Perhaps a good subtitle for this thread would be assistance for coal mining communities...

Hillary was never going to lessen air regs and the coal folks knew that. It was Obama's greatest unacknowledged feat, his environmental performance. Trump is the anti-christ of the environment but he still won't be able to do anything with coal, gas is cheaper and a better match for the coming decades of energy performance. China may help coal, may not. We'll see.

 

[nwdiver]

Hillary was never going to lessen air regs and the coal folks knew that. It was Obama's greatest unacknowledged feat, his environmental performance. Trump is the anti-christ of the environment but he still won't be able to do anything with coal, gas is cheaper and a better match for the coming decades of energy performance. China may help coal, may not. We'll see.

Did you read my entire post?

I'm in no way suggesting that Trump can fulfill his promise... I'm pretty sure it's just another one of his many many lies. My point is that we need a plan that can save their communities. Solar and Wind jobs won't accomplish that.

Coal needs to go away. No doubt about that. But coal did help build this country and we need to help the communities that mined coal for nearly a century as we transition to cleaner energy.

 

[electracity]

Small businesses that provided necessary goods and services were the grease that made these communities thrive. Until we figure out how to revitalize Main Street, we might as well write these communities off. They ain't never coming back.

This is the worldwide phenomenon of urbanization, presumably caused by middle class jobs shifting to the well educated. Even the quant small towns of rural France are not sustainable based on current wants and needs. The idea that coal miners should receive special treatment is absurd. They are about the least deserving of special treatment among the vast number of impacted communities. The relatively high population densities of parts of West Virginia and Wyoming are solely because of coal jobs paying $20/hour to individuals with modest high school educations. Those jobs and those communities are finished.

The recently popular book Hillbilly Elegy gives one person insight into his Appalachian family and community.

 

[Skotty]

I'm not sure the communities can be saved, but we could at least offer some support to individual families.

If there was a program to help these people, it wouldn't just have to be for coal miners and coal industry workers. It could be for all affected people who end up suffering due to the shifting industries of modern times. I think it could be a good thing.

Republicans sometimes miss the fact that welfare programs have a noble purpose at heart, to help the downtrodden in times of need. These programs are paid for modestly by the middle class and more signficantly by the rich folks who pay more in taxes in one year than most of us will make in our lifetimes yet still have enough left to live in mansions and fly around in private jets. Democrats sometimes miss the fact that these types of programs can be and sometimes are abused. Republicans should focus more on program management and addressing identified areas of abuse, and not on trying to eliminate the programs entirely.

Someone talked about living in more isolated local communities that can take care of themselves. That's fine on a limited basis, but can't be done on a larger scale due to the framework that enables modern society from a more global economy. A local community is valuable in being able to provide the basics for living, but they won't have the specialization needed to build things like 14nm process technology microprocessors that can run at 3.5+ GHz. The specialization of a global economy is needed for that.

 

[tomas]

I'm not sure the communities can be saved, but we could at least offer some support to individual families.

If there was a program to help these people, it wouldn't just have to be for coal miners and coal industry workers. It could be for all affected people who end up suffering due to the shifting industries of modern times. I think it could be a good thing.

Republicans sometimes miss the fact that welfare programs have a noble purpose at heart, to help the downtrodden in times of need. These programs are paid for modestly by the middle class and more signficantly by the rich folks who pay more in taxes in one year than most of us will make in our lifetimes yet still have enough left to live in mansions and fly around in private jets. Democrats sometimes miss the fact that these types of programs can be and sometimes are abused. Republicans should focus more on program management and addressing identified areas of abuse, and not on trying to eliminate the programs entirely.

Someone talked about living in more isolated local communities that can take care of themselves. That's fine on a limited basis, but can't be done on a larger scale due to the framework that enables modern society from a more global economy. A local community is valuable in being able to provide the basics for living, but they won't have the specialization needed to build things like 14nm process technology microprocessors that can run at 3.5+ GHz. The specialization of a global economy is needed for that.

It's not just republicans who are replying against this notion. And being against this is not the same as being against welfare. Why on earth should coal miners get special treatment over any other industry or area suffering from loss of jobs? Solve the whole problem, not bits and pieces of it!

And it was me that suggested closed loop local economy. Question was whether man can subsist and thrive without all the new technology that forces us to be part of the global economy. The idea was not to grow your own food but operate a microprocessor fabrication plant.

 

[electracity]

And being against this is not the same as being against welfare.

Exactly. The social safety net in the U.S. is too weak, healthcare being the most obvious current example. But the government deciding what jobs might work in west virginia or wyoming has never worked, and will never work. It is also unfair to pick one loud group to receive disproportionate benefits.

Many plumber's unions do not have enough plumbers and can not find apprentices (who get paid to learn the trade). People not wanting low paid service jobs do have choices. They just don't get to choose the specific job they prefer in their preferred location.

 

[Topher]

It is not about retraining "people", it is about directing more taxes to a specific group that have manipulated the political system to the detriment of the common good.

No, I am pretty sure I was talking about retraining people. That's why I used the words 'retraining' and 'people' (without scare quotes).

Thank you kindly.

 

[nwdiver]

More bad news for coal ...... ........

This is the largest coal plant in NM. If it closes that will leave <300MW of coal generation in the state.

 

[SageBrush]

More bad news for coal ...... ........

This is the largest coal plant in NM. If it closes that will leave <300MW of coal generation in the state.

Why is it considered a poor asset ?

Is the the long reach of California in play ? IIRC a fair fraction of the ownership and generation has CA connections.

 

[Ampster]

Is the the long reach of California in play ? IIRC a fair fraction of the ownership and generation has CA connections.

I think LADWP had some ownership. I thought I read somewhere the sold their interest.