ricardocabesa
STD free
I will pay for navigation if necessary and will not pay for HUD. The maps already show Super Chargers in a Model S.
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alseTrick
Active Member
If autopilot on the 3 costs less than the current price for the S/X, it means the S/X have also decreased in price.
And the hardware isn't free, so maybe Tesla plans to keep the current S/X price for the 3 in order to recoup some of that expense.
Not to mention Tesla has RAISED the predict of autopilot MULTIPLE times since it's release as new features were added or improved. It's certainly possible autopilot actually goes up in price towards its march towards full autonomy.
They might drop the price on the full self-driving for the Model S/X once the Model 3 is out, and has full self-driving at a lower price. They also might not. There's nothing unusual about having a different price for the same functionality/part on different cars. If you need a part for a VW or an Audi at a VW/Audi dealer, the same exact part, plucked out of the same parts bin at the dealer, you will often/usually have to pay more if it's an Audi.
And looking at my other suggested option prices, pretty much every option listed is more expensive on a Model S: Attempting to price out options for Model 3 (Part 2!)
- Metallic paint, why should it cost 750 USD on a Model 3, but 1000 USD on a Model S? It's the same paint, applied in the same paint shop, in basically the same quantities!
- High amp charger, why should it be 1000 USD on the Model 3, but 1500 USD on a Model S? I'm working on the assumption that the Model S and Model 3 will have the exact same charger!
The fact is that something is worth what people are willing to pay. On a higher priced car, people are willing to pay more for options, therefore the same options are worth more. The question for Tesla is if they can still make money on selling the full self-driving tech at a lower price on the Model 3, and I think they can.
That's quite unlikely. They're already selling full self-driving. What's beyond that?
JeffK
Well-Known Member
I would think that the differences in the vehicles would require some differences in the code that dictates how it reacts. The 3 is shorter, skinnier, and not as tall, it's lighter, and has different acceleration and deceleration profiles. Maybe all it involves is swapping out some constants in the code, but it could be a bit more involved than that.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
This is probably more on the nose.
It'll be a simple logic statement with dimensions. the goal would be to make it as similar as possible so that the DNN can be trained with the biggest possible dataset. Making these dramatically different would lead to fragmentation and one system potentially being safer than another.
As far as price, one reason it could be cheaper is simply a more automated way to install the systems/wiring. This doesn't have much to due with software, but if you consider the price of the feature as a system, it would bring the price down if there was less labor cost in manufacturing.
ummgood
Member
Everyone keeps getting into discussions about price vs the Model S. First Tesla needs to make a profit. Once they have achieved profit I think the options will priced based on good old supply/demand. At some point the fact that it's a "Tesla" and it is "Cool" will have to give way to competitive pricing. It just depends on how much of the middle class automotive market that Tesla wants to take over and what they are capable of fulfilling.
This will be hard work. Raise the price too much and they sell less cars. You might say the base price is cheap enough but if everyone in that price range is expecting leather seats then the cost of the leather seats will determine if someone buys the car. Same with sunroof or paint. They'll have to tread carefully. If the options cost too much they'll drive away purchasers. Even the early reservation holders if they aren't careful.
The Model S lives in a different class and income demographic than the Model 3 will. I could afford a Model S but frankly it is just too expensive for me to consider. I really wanted to buy one but right now I believe a lot of the people driving them are either stretching to get the car or have enough money where an extra 20k is not a big deal when checking the options. I really want the Tesla because I test drove a Model S and right afterword I told myself I'll be willing to buy less of a Model 3 if the options cost too much. BUT when I drove the model S the autopilot option was 2k less than it is now. Frankly if the model 3 stays at the same price for options as the Model S I'll have to be reconsidering even though I want one bad.
With all that said with the quantities that Tesla plans on building, will they be decreasing the cost of the options (even autopilot)? I sure hope so. The quantities should allow them to decrease the cost. I don't think it is valid to say if they decrease the cost on the Model 3 they should decrease the cost on a Model S. That isn't how marketing works. They need to price each car independent based on what the market will bare.
This will be hard work. Raise the price too much and they sell less cars. You might say the base price is cheap enough but if everyone in that price range is expecting leather seats then the cost of the leather seats will determine if someone buys the car. Same with sunroof or paint. They'll have to tread carefully. If the options cost too much they'll drive away purchasers. Even the early reservation holders if they aren't careful.
The Model S lives in a different class and income demographic than the Model 3 will. I could afford a Model S but frankly it is just too expensive for me to consider. I really wanted to buy one but right now I believe a lot of the people driving them are either stretching to get the car or have enough money where an extra 20k is not a big deal when checking the options. I really want the Tesla because I test drove a Model S and right afterword I told myself I'll be willing to buy less of a Model 3 if the options cost too much. BUT when I drove the model S the autopilot option was 2k less than it is now. Frankly if the model 3 stays at the same price for options as the Model S I'll have to be reconsidering even though I want one bad.
With all that said with the quantities that Tesla plans on building, will they be decreasing the cost of the options (even autopilot)? I sure hope so. The quantities should allow them to decrease the cost. I don't think it is valid to say if they decrease the cost on the Model 3 they should decrease the cost on a Model S. That isn't how marketing works. They need to price each car independent based on what the market will bare.
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I agree with this statement. The Model 3 will be sold in higher quantities. Therefore the price of things like paint should be decreased as Tesla buys in higher quantities.
I somewhat disagree with this statement. Again buying in larger quantities will drive the price that Tesla pays down. Now will Tesla reflect that in a price decrease for the Model S/X as well, we shall see. You are right the price will reflect what the market will bare, but I predict it will drive the prices down. When potential Model S/X buyers complain that the price of premium paint or autopilot is more expensive than on the Model 3 it might force Tesla to make all options on all models equally priced.
ummgood
Member
If they are clever they'll add some superficial things to the Model S options to "differentiate" them from the Model 3 options. For example different paint colors for the paint or adding "rich Corinthian" leather or something. This way if a customer complains that the same option cost more on a Model S than a Model 3 the sales guy can state "But the Model S has rich Corinthian leather". If a car is in a higher class you would expect the materials to be different to justify the increased cost. This doesn't bode well for things like Autopilot unless they add something to it to differentiate it from the Model 3 to the Model S.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Let's all keep in mind the simple truth that Tesla is generating considerable revenue the only thing stopping Tesla from making profit is themselves (expansion and R&D, which are great things don't get me wrong). They averaged 25% gross profit on automotive in 2015.
Tesla will decrease the cost of the Model S/X eventually, but at the end of the day S/X are still more complex to manufacture, much lower volumes, and an all aluminum body is always going to carry a premium. Once Tesla fulfills their obligation to Panasonic for the number of 18650s they are contracted to buy (I don't remember the status of this), then we will see the switch to the 21700 cells (21-70). This will lower the cost of Model S/X right away. They might taper the cost over the course of 2017/2018 not to upset people or they might offer higher density packs at the same price points.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
R+D in EVs is inherently more expensive, since we're still basically in the infancy of what EVs can do in terms of efficient energy use and storage.
ICE's and their tech have been fine-tuned over 100+ years. There's only so much left you can do in that arena.
ummgood
Member
I agree with you on the profit but I am not so sure they'll reduce the price of the Model S or X. Just like you don't BMW reducing the price of a 7 series. No they add additional features to the 7 and then trickle down what the last generation 7 had to the 5 series and so on. Car models tend to go up in price over time and the models most of the time get bigger and bigger. Then when the smallest is too big to be the small car alternative they come out with a new model that is smaller.
Look at the Honda Civic and Accord. They have bloated over time to the point where the current Civic is probably the same size as an Accord was in the 80's. Now they have a Fit to replace the small Civic hatchback. Same with the CRV it is getting bigger and bigger and now there is a new small alternative.
I guess the question lies what will Tesla do to differentiate the Model S from the Model 3. Size is one thing but I expect more fancy gizmos on the Model S than the 3. I do expect the 3 that comes out the end of the year to have most of the options the Model S does so it doesn't seem that far fetched (within Tesla's capability) for Tesla to even further update the Model S with some new ideas in a refresh that the Model 3 will not get for a few years. Of course I also expect that Elon will want all of the safety/self driving features to be on both cars but perhaps the Model S gets even more luxurious.
alseTrick
Active Member
Agree to disagree on the 3's autopilot and autonomous driving being significantly cheaper than on the S/X.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
For me...and I know I am in the minority and that's ok...Auto Pilot and full autonomy are priority number one. I will get it above all other options, regardless of price.
Dan
plankeye
That Vegan EV Guy
Clearly you're not traveling with a woman with a tiny bladder.
I'm lucky to go 1.5 to 2 hours at a stretch. If the Model 3 can use the V3 superchargers and they're close enough together, then stops that often shouldn't take more than 5-10 mins.I hope to get as close to a base model as possible, maybe only EAP. I hope to save enough to get my wife a Model Y in three years or so.
plankeye
That Vegan EV Guy
I assume you would only pick one of those conflicting seating options!
Hopefully the vegan one, of course!
plankeye
That Vegan EV Guy
I doubt Elon would have commented on the spaceship-like interior, meaning for that to be an option.
Major controls are rarely if ever options. If a HUD is an option, it's only because there is a conventional dash as well.
