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Attorney decides to test legality of texting while on Autopilot

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You know whats more distracting than phones in a car? Kids. Should we ban them too? Talking on a phone handsfree is the same thing as talking to a passenger, maybe we should ban passengers while we at it. Ban everything!

Talking Driving - Science Updates - Science NetLinks

That said, this is a form of mitigation... as basically all laws and regulations are. Do you think a single speed limit law or gun legislation will completely eliminate the potential risks they set out to avoid? Of course not, however the point is to reduce the odds and/or frequency at which these unfortunate occurrences happen. If we only enacted rules and regulations when they are 100% effective, we would be living in anarchy.

I should also point out that various states have laws in place limiting the number of passengers underage drivers can have in their vehicles for this very reason.

Example: Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles

If you are under age 18, you may carry only one passenger under age 21, unless accompanied by a licensed parent, or other adult acting in place of a parent, in the front passenger seat. However, after you have held your license for one year, you may carry up to three passengers under age 21 in the following situations:

  • Travel to and from a school-sponsored activity;
  • A licensed driver 21 or older is in the front passenger seat; or
  • In case of an emergency.
Learner's permit holders may not carry more than one passenger under age 18.
Violations of either the curfew or passenger restrictions can result in the suspension of your driver's license.
 
Using autopilot is driving. The cop was 100% in the right for issuing a ticket.

Until we get fully autonomous cars where the automaker assumes full liability for all accidents, we have not reached a point where the driver doesn't have responsibility.
 
There's lots of those threads. But here's a hint for you, when you see a thread named "Texting while not driving ?" you may wish to pass on reading it, since it's not what you're looking for.

thanks for the advice, but I think I'll continue to read & comment as I see fit.

...but to your point, now that the thread title has been updated, yeah I prolly would've skipped it.
 
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I find it hard to imagine that any lawyer who reads the restrictions on autopilot, which in essence require you to pay attention to driving and the road at all times, would opine that texting while driving was allowed. If so, he needs to go back to law school.

What that one lawyer did in front of a police officer is mind boggling, to say the least. Even if this lawyer fights the ticket and wins, a trial decision in traffic court means practically nothing when it comes to precedent case-law. You need an appeal court decision on this issue to have any binding authority. So if he wins, how does he appeal? He can't. And if he loses, is he going to run this up the ladder of appeal and risk significant costs at the appeal court levels? Good luck on that one.

Odd that you should mention this! About three years ago here in town a lawyer was stuck in traffic waiting for a slow-moving freight train to pass. He whipped out his smart phone to check the maps feature to find a detour to reach his destination. A chippie motorcycle officer spotted him using his cell phone and cited him under the "texting while driving" statute. (I do not know the statute reference off hand.) The officer even stipulated at trial that the driver was not texting but consulting his smart phone. The driver was found guilty.

In California if a motorist appeals a traffic court conviction, the first step is to appeal within the Superior Court (county-based) system, and three Superior Court judges convene the appeal and hear the oral arguments. He appealed, and lost again, 2-1. So, his colleague offered to take the appeal further to the State Court of Appeals, and those jurists agreed to hear the case. The appeals court reversed the conviction in a published opinion, saying that the legislative history and the wording of the statute made it clear that if the legislators wanted to prohibit all smart phone usage while driving, they would have done so, but instead they elected to restrict the prohibition to talking and texting.

(As an aside, if law enforcement officers are presumed to be the experts in knowing what behavior is lawful and what behavior is unlawful, one would think that the legal minds in the Department of Justice/Attorney General's office would have already formed a position on a matter such as this and instructed the agencies accordingly. I wonder how many traffic stops/arrests are made because law enforcement is guessing or is unclear on the law?)
 
Odd that you should mention this! About three years ago here in town a lawyer was stuck in traffic waiting for a slow-moving freight train to pass. He whipped out his smart phone to check the maps feature to find a detour to reach his destination. A chippie motorcycle officer spotted him using his cell phone and cited him under the "texting while driving" statute. (I do not know the statute reference off hand.) The officer even stipulated at trial that the driver was not texting but consulting his smart phone. The driver was found guilty.

In California if a motorist appeals a traffic court conviction, the first step is to appeal within the Superior Court (county-based) system, and three Superior Court judges convene the appeal and hear the oral arguments. He appealed, and lost again, 2-1. So, his colleague offered to take the appeal further to the State Court of Appeals, and those jurists agreed to hear the case. The appeals court reversed the conviction in a published opinion, saying that the legislative history and the wording of the statute made it clear that if the legislators wanted to prohibit all smart phone usage while driving, they would have done so, but instead they elected to restrict the prohibition to talking and texting.

(As an aside, if law enforcement officers are presumed to be the experts in knowing what behavior is lawful and what behavior is unlawful, one would think that the legal minds in the Department of Justice/Attorney General's office would have already formed a position on a matter such as this and instructed the agencies accordingly. I wonder how many traffic stops/arrests are made because law enforcement is guessing or is unclear on the law?)
Well done. Although I think it was capricious to test a junior-college-educated cop, it matters when our increasingly militarized police have sole say and the lower courts rubber-stamp them. Especially municipal court is a meat-grinder in every state, and more should challenge injustice.
 
Well done. Although I think it was capricious to test a junior-college-educated cop, it matters when our increasingly militarized police have sole say and the lower courts rubber-stamp them. Especially municipal court is a meat-grinder in every state, and more should challenge injustice.

It's an "injustice" to be given a ticket while using a cell phone to find an alternate route? And that's because of our over militarized police whose education you criticize? I feel sorry for the police in today's world. Of course, there are some bad ones, like every profession. But since this thread has escalated to the level of Blackstone's formulation, perhaps ticketing a few extra people for using their phones when it may be appropriate is also appropriate for the overall good of society given the carnage on our roads caused by distracted driving? Sometimes erring on the side of caution is the correct way to go.
 
It's an "injustice" to be given a ticket while using a cell phone to find an alternate route? And that's because of our over militarized police whose education you criticize? I feel sorry for the police in today's world. Of course, there are some bad ones, like every profession. But since this thread has escalated to the level of Blackstone's formulation, perhaps ticketing a few extra people for using their phones when it may be appropriate is also appropriate for the overall good of society given the carnage on our roads caused by distracted driving? Sometimes erring on the side of caution is the correct way to go.
Wow, you have way lost perspective, Surrey.

Checked the accident rate per capita in the Colonies, historically? You are way off. Unless you're a cop, then your post is understandable.
 
I keep hoping that one day TMC will actually morph into a car forum instead of a forum of agendas tangentially related to a car.

Not today, apparently.

Oh please.

Yeah -- like that could ever happen. This is the largest collection of OCD type-A personalities on the planet. <He cringes, waiting for the tangential thread of people trying to prove there's another larger one somewhere else on the planet. Or perhaps some other planet.>
 
I think everyone is kind of missing the OP's point of this thread.....

Is texting while driving wrong? Absolutely. Should not be done, period. Likely more unsafe than drunk driving in my opinion.

The point was made about using your phone to check Navigation for an alternate route. As the laws state that talking and texting must be hands free, the superior court was correct to overturn the conviction based on the way the law was written. The problem today is that smartphones have multiple functions. Using it to determine an alternate route is no different than using an in-car navigation system, which is not illegal. In the case mentioned above, the officer admitted that the phone was not being used for texting or talking. Had the officer decided to not volunteer that information, then it would have been his word against the defendant's and the defendant is almost certain to lose. Therefore, while it may not technically be illegal to use your smartphone for anything other than talk and text, defending it in court would likely be difficult in most situations. I guess you could get try and get the phone company to submit an affidavit to the usage history on the phone to prove that no calls or texts were made at that time. However, even that doesn't guarantee success since you could have been writing a text and just not sent it. Point here is, probably not a good idea to put your hands on your phone for any reason while driving. Right or wrong, unless you get lucky and get an officer willing to admit he knew you weren't using to talk or text, you're going to lose. Most however would likely state, they don't know why you were using it.

Now, back to the original purpose of this post. And again, I'm not defending the actions of texting and driving. I am 1,000 percent against it. I'm also not defending the actions I'm about to describe as I'm 10,000 percent against them too. But that's not the purpose of this post. The question I believe that was really being asked was, is there a loophole in the law that would allow you to text while using auto-pilot? While I am 100% certain the laws will be revised to close any loopholes in the near future, especially after someone wins a case in court over the issue, that doesn't mean there aren't loopholes today to prevent a conviction.

The point to this post is the law and only the law. How is the law written? This is simply based on my own opinion on how the laws are written (and they could vary from state to state, just referring to the laws in my own state).

The first question that has to be asked, what does the law state to constitute actual "driving"? Being that Auto-pilot is a new feature, I don't believe the laws are current enough to account for this very new technology. If your hands are not touching the steering wheel and feet are not touching the pedals, are you "driving". Keep in mind this question is very different than "are you responsible". Yes, you are responsible for your vehicle as the "operator" of the vehicle. But that doesn't mean you're responsible as the "driver". Two different things. And this is where this scenario could apply to both texting/talking and/or if you were involved in an accident. You'd be responsible for the accident, but likely be able to fight having a point go on your driving record, if you can prove that auto-pilot was engaged.

Again, the question remains, what constitutes "driving"?

Here's where the controversy to my argument comes into play and again, I am 10,000 percent against this. But, again, we are seeking legal loopholes here. How many criminals get off on legal loopholes? Happens every day! The law is written in black and white. If someone breaking the law does so in a manner that falls outside of the black and white definition of the law, then they're technically not breaking the law. My point is, the laws are now out of date based on the new technology. Anyway, back on point, what constitutes "driving"? We've likely all seen the complete idiotic morons on Youtube that have chosen to set Auto Pilot and then hop into the back seat of the car. Again, 10,000 percent against this, but are you "driving" the car from the back seat? You are still the operator of the vehicle and hence still responsible for the vehicle, but are you breaking any written driving laws by doing so? Not that I've found. Not yet anyway. Again, these laws will be re-written in short order. But again, are you "driving" the vehicle? And is there a state that has a law against jumping into the back seat of a vehicle while it is in motion? As an operator of the vehicle, there are laws in most states that would encompass this scenario, however that still doesn't mean you were "driving".

Based on the laws as they are written today, my answer would be "NO", you are not driving the vehicle from the backseat of the car. You're being a moronic "operator" of the vehicle, but you're not driving the vehicle. As such, any laws that pertain to the "driver" of the vehicle, do not apply while the Auto-Pilot system is engaged. Now you'd have to find a way to prove this as well. Not sure Tesla would be willing to assist you with this information?? Likely not. But that's not the point.

Point is, while using Auto-Pilot, assuming you can prove it, you are not driving the car from the backseat of the car. And therefore, if you're not driving the car from the backseat of the car, then you're not driving the car from any seat in the car. Hence, you are not technically breaking the law of "texting/talking while DRIVING". So, unless you get a judge that simply refuses to follow the law (wouldn't be the first time in traffic court), you'd be able to win fighting this ticket. If not in traffic court, then eventually through appeals.

Now, the officer, if thinking ahead, could cite you for something else, as the operator of the vehicle to prevent this. But, if he/she writes you up for texting/talking while driving, you should be able to beat it in court.

Again, I'm 1,000 percent against texting and driving and 10,000 percent against getting out of the driver seat while auto-pilot is engaged. This post is solely about the laws, the way they are written and finding the loopholes in the laws. Until the loopholes are closed to the point where Schwarzenegger can no longer drive his "Humma tru yoor loopholes", many criminal acts will continue to get dismissed in our justice system.

Again, this is just my "opinion" based on the laws as I know them in my own state. Certainly not recommended to tempt fate. Laws vary from state to state and possibly some states are smarter than others and have already planned for this scenario.

So, while I disagree with the OP using the legal system for playing a game and intentionally trying to get a citation and waste taxpayer money and government resources, the fact remains, that more than likely, if he can prove that auto-pilot was engaged, he "should" get the citation dismissed in court due to these loopholes.
 
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Interesting analysis. But I disagree. I've used AP a lot and think a better description is that it assists me with driving rather than replacing me as driver. I'm still driving. But like with old fashioned cruise before it, I'm relieved of certain burdens of driving. ( viz, going same speed as car in front of me, up to my set max, and generally staying in normal lanes. ) but crossing intersections, navigating exits and other lane splits, watching for potholes and debris, I'm still driving.

If a law is conditioned on driving, I think I'm still driving with AP. But I agree that most laws contemplated a more active driving required, and yet contemplate that driving a car with AP in certain conditions can allow for longer periods of divided attention to tend to the supercharger routing, the plugshare comments, the USB drive song selection, all on the 17" monitor, -- or similar and additional smartphone functions
 
Interesting analysis. But I disagree. I've used AP a lot and think a better description is that it assists me with driving rather than replacing me as driver. I'm still driving. But like with old fashioned cruise before it, I'm relieved of certain burdens of driving. ( viz, going same speed as car in front of me, up to my set max, and generally staying in normal lanes. ) but crossing intersections, navigating exits and other lane splits, watching for potholes and debris, I'm still driving.

If a law is conditioned on driving, I think I'm still driving with AP. But I agree that most laws contemplated a more active driving required, and yet contemplate that driving a car with AP in certain conditions can allow for longer periods of divided attention to tend to the supercharger routing, the plugshare comments, the USB drive song selection, all on the 17" monitor, -- or similar and additional smartphone functions

You contradicted yourself with your two paragraphs. First you state that you're still the driver. Then you states that your attention is divided to tend to other tasks. If you're tending to other tasks, then you're not "driving". Your first paragraph also comments about not being able to cross intersections, etc, with auto-pilot. You're absolutely correct in that portion of your statement. And in those circumstances, auto-pilot likely is not fully engaged and you again, are 'driving" the car. My argument only refers to times where auto-pilot is engaged and the driver is not participating in the movement of the vehicle. If you're not steering, hands are not on the steer wheel, feet on are not on the pedals and you're just sitting there watching, then you are....a passenger at that moment in time. With auto-pilot, you are still "operating" the vehicle, but you're not "driving". There is a difference and when it comes to beating a law and using a loophole, that difference is all that matters.
 
For the lawyers in this thread I have always wondered something. In my state (GA):

§ 40-6-241.2 - Writing, sending, or reading text based communication while operating motor vehicle prohibited; exceptions; penalties for violation :: 2010 Georgia Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

No person who is 18 years of age or older or who has a Class C license shall operate a motor vehicle on any public road or highway of this state while using a wireless telecommunications device to write, send, or read any text based communication, including but not limited to a text message, instant message, e-mail, or Internet data.

It would seem to me that doing something on my phone that doesn't send or receive data would not be prohibited by this statute (eg I have an RSS reader that only syncs on demand, or reading a Kindle, or playing solitaire).

Therefore the officer seeing somebody use a device shouldn't be enough to convict; they should have to prove that data was being sent or received, right?