Audi, Porsche and Mercedes preparing a rival for Tesla

[William13]

I believe that technology to build an EV will be easy to copy a la Hyundai. The old guard car manufacturers will however not be nimble and will wait too long to copy the Tesla Model S,X,3 etc. They may catch up in about 10 years. GM took 15+ to learn from NUMMI to improve car quality. The old guard including the Germans are/will be too proud to change quickly. Half efforts that are doomed to fail will prevail.

 

[SebastianR]

The old guard including the Germans are/will be too proud to change quickly. Half efforts that are doomed to fail will prevail.

That's what I think, too. Then again, last Sunday, the biggest German power company E.On which owns a ton of coal, nuclear and gas power stations as well as tons of electrical grid and gas pipes announced that they will out-place all their coal, nuclear and gas power plants into a new separate company and only focus on renewables going forward. They were the biggest proponent of a centralized power system with only huge monolithic power plants and are now pursuing decentralized renewable energy solutions only. Had you asked me about this move last Saturday, I would have declared any such move impossible. Now they did it. My take is: never say never.

 

[roblab]

The old guard including the Germans are/will be too proud to change quickly. Half efforts that are doomed to fail will prevail.

Not just pride. "German Engineering" is a catch phrase, but it's also true. Unfortunately all those engineers only think gas engines and many speed transmissions and drive trains. My son drives BMW because he loves the "power", meaning the noise, the jerk, the shift, the temporary torque when at the proper speed. To him, the smooth power delivery of Tesla is boring. And all those German Engineers feel the same way. They worship inferiority. So it is pride, but also training and education. Somewhere at the beginning, German schulen will have to teach electronics, and that isn't what they do.

 

[MassModel3]

That's what I think, too. Then again, last Sunday, the biggest German power company E.On which owns a ton of coal, nuclear and gas power stations as well as tons of electrical grid and gas pipes announced that they will out-place all their coal, nuclear and gas power plants into a new separate company and only focus on renewables going forward. They were the biggest proponent of a centralized power system with only huge monolithic power plants and are now pursuing decentralized renewable energy solutions only. Had you asked me about this move last Saturday, I would have declared any such move impossible. Now they did it. My take is: never say never.

It's my understanding that the solar power revolution in Germany is actually causing a spiraling effect that's really hurting companies that deal with nuclear, coal, etc. When customers convert to solar, they use little to no grid power and therefore don't pay into it (as much). But the power companies still need to maintain their infrastructures, so they have no choice but to raise prices for remaining customers, which drives them to solar, too.

On one hand, you have the German people as a whole accepting that solar can power much of the needs of the country, so I'm not surprised the power companies are also moving in that direction. But on the other hand, you have the brilliant minds of high-end automotive engineers who are absolutely convinced that fossil fuels are the only way to properly power a car.

It'll be interesting to see where Germany as a whole is ten years from now. I think that with the success of Tesla, as young engineers are brought in to design the next generations of German automobiles, they'll be moving much more toward the i3/i8 mindset and less on high-octane gas guzzlers.

 

[sandpiper]

Not just pride. "German Engineering" is a catch phrase, but it's also true. Unfortunately all those engineers only think gas engines and many speed transmissions and drive trains. My son drives BMW because he loves the "power", meaning the noise, the jerk, the shift, the temporary torque when at the proper speed. To him, the smooth power delivery of Tesla is boring. And all those German Engineers feel the same way. They worship inferiority. So it is pride, but also training and education. Somewhere at the beginning, German schulen will have to teach electronics, and that isn't what they do.

The Germans have brought the internal combustion drive train to a fine art, and it's tough for anybody to contemplate the eventual decline of something that you've invested so much into.

From an engineering perspective, the electric drive-train IS boring. It's dirt simple, and there's not much meat for thousands of very bright and imaginative engineers to chew on. After a few years of refinement, the electric drive train will become an inexpensive and 100% reliable commodity. We're seeing the very start of the switch from CRTs to flatscreen TVs again.

 

[Tharo]

Audi Building All-Electric Tesla-Competitive Crossover For US - HybridCars.com

 

[Robert.Boston]

Oh, dear, this is just ugly. Really, Audi?

 

[ckessel]

From the article:

“Our engineers are working” on an electric car to meet U.S. regulations for a zero-emission vehicle, said Audi CEO Rupert Stadler to Bloomberg in Berlin.

Bzzztttt! Wrong answer. It's just a compliance car...for 2017, so I'm guessing a real effort an electric car wouldn't even start until after that. At least they're talking about 300-400 miles of range.

The right answer would have been something like "Our engineers are working on an electric car to produce a superior vehicle".

 

[Gerardf]

So it is pride, but also training and education. Somewhere at the beginning, German schulen will have to teach electronics, and that isn't what they do.

While I agree with your opinion that the German automotive industry still focuses to much on ICE technology, they have a very strong Electronics Engineering, Electronics R&D and embedded software base. The largest Embedded Software show in the world is actually in Nuremberg and the ISO26262 Automotive safety standard has its roots in Germany.

(Note: I am not German )

 

[Robert.Boston]

At least Audi has gotten shamed into coming up with an all-electric rev of its R8. It's a little embarrassing when your top-of-the-line sports car (R8 V10 plus) only puts out 550 HP, 398 lb-ft, and o-60 in 3.7 seconds, costs $173k, seats 2, and has no meaningful luggage space, when an upstart US car company can make something that is more powerful, quicker, cheaper, and more spacious, the Model S P85D. That combination can only happen with electric motors.

Audi's cross-over efforts, by contrast, appear to be nothing more than an ugly compliance car.

 

[VolkerP]

German here.

Currently we're building a new airport near the capital, Berlin, and an underground 8 track railway station BELOW the existing one in Stuttgart. Both projected to cost 5-6b Euros. The airport nears completion since 2013, costs spiral out of control. This point hasn't been reached yet with the station, but is expected to happen nevertheless.

So no money left for a giga factory :cursing:

The German car manufacturers know how to build EVs: good ones in China, not so good ones in Germany. They don't want to cannibalize their ICE market share and speed depreciation of the ICE R&D assets.
Forget Audi/VW/Porsche. They are masterminded by Ferdinand Piech, a true petrol head in his eighties.
Mercedes tries every possible drive train technology at the same time. They want to make sure they have a winning horse in the race when the shot is fired.
BMW has created a conquest car with the i3, that attracts 80% non BMW customers.

They all are dragging their feet and try to lobby the government into funding the venture capital for the complete start over. No signs of this happening yet.

 

[ecarfan]

Oh, dear, this is just ugly.

Agreed. However that car is years away from hitting the road, and that image does not appear to be a photo of an actual car. Let's hope the actual car looks a whole lot better!

It seems that AUDI is waking up to reality and realizing it needs to get into the long range EV business. And that is entirely due to the success of the Model S and the coming X.

An all electric R8 is going to be inconsequential. A 300 mile range EV SUV at a competitive price is what AUDI needs to get in the game.

 

[SebastianR]

It's my understanding that the solar power revolution in Germany is actually causing a spiraling effect that's really hurting companies that deal with nuclear, coal, etc. When customers convert to solar, they use little to no grid power and therefore don't pay into it (as much). But the power companies still need to maintain their infrastructures, so they have no choice but to raise prices for remaining customers, which drives them to solar, too.

That's a very dangerous / borderline misleading way to argue - I don't buy this argument which is usually spread by utilities. In Germany the situation is quite different: the feed-in tariffs for solar used to be much higher than the public electricity prices. Thus people would feed-in AND buy they entire electricity bill back from the market. This is financed by a special kind of surcharge on all electricity customers (yep, that part won't fly in the US ). As costs came down now it is cheaper to produce your own electricity than to buy it from the market. Still, not all that many people do that.
What killed coal power plants is the principle that renewable power always gets sold first in the electricity exchange. This means that during peak consumption (mid-day) - which coincides with peak production of solar - the wholesale electricity rates remained reasonably low and coal plants' power wouldn't sell as well as in the days before solar. In fact, renewables made wholesale electricity much cheaper over the past years and the big utilities didn't see this coming and are swept away by the market. They tried a lot of FUD ("only nuclear power generated electricity is 'real' electricity, wind generated electricity is 'less good') but ultimately the market didn't care about that.

And E.On is getting rid of power plants - they keep their electricity network.

It'll be interesting to see where Germany as a whole is ten years from now. I think that with the success of Tesla, as young engineers are brought in to design the next generations of German automobiles, they'll be moving much more toward the i3/i8 mindset and less on high-octane gas guzzlers.

Indeed, very interested. So far, I don't think that Audi/VW/Porsche have smelled the coffee - they are petrol heads with not a single shred of awareness that electric cars will be the future. Anyways, we will see

 

[SuryaDham]

Indeed, very interested. So far, I don't think that Audi/VW/Porsche have smelled the coffee - they are petrol heads with not a single shred of awareness that electric cars will be the future. Anyways, we will see

This video is VERY telling: Audi E-Tron Engine Sound Engineering - YouTube
"you have to find a great sound for the car, and that took us more than 3 years".
My first thought was this video is a prank, but sadly, it's not...

 

[adiggs]

This video is VERY telling: Audi E-Tron Engine Sound Engineering - YouTube
"you have to find a great sound for the car, and that took us more than 3 years".
My first thought was this video is a prank, but sadly, it's not...

I drive a Roadster. Outside of the looks (I do like the looks of the E-Tron), I kept thinking something between "where is the punch line" and "we're about 7 years after Roadster launch, and they're STILL catching up?".

 

[bluenation]

This video is VERY telling: Audi E-Tron Engine Sound Engineering - YouTube
"you have to find a great sound for the car, and that took us more than 3 years".
My first thought was this video is a prank, but sadly, it's not...

....wow

i have no words. this video is real?

holy $%&*, audi.

 

[bollar]

This video is VERY telling: Audi E-Tron Engine Sound Engineering - YouTube
"you have to find a great sound for the car, and that took us more than 3 years".
My first thought was this video is a prank, but sadly, it's not...

Oh my.

I guess I'm not surprised. Mercedes/AMG sent me a survey very focused on engine sound in future cars. It was telling that "no artificial noise" was not an option.

 

[Robert.Boston]

BMW already fakes the engine sound in its M3 and M5, using the sound system to augment the driver's experience. Modern ICEs are getting so efficient that they don't make "enough" noise. Sheesh.

Thought experiment: if Tesla offered fake engine sounds as a switchable option in the Model S, what fraction of owners would turn it on?

 

[Cosmacelf]

BMW already Thought experiment: if Tesla offered fake engine sounds as a switchable option in the Model S, what fraction of owners would turn it on?

One of the prized features of the Model S is how quiet it is. I often will accelerate fast on city streets. The last thing I need is to advertise to any cop in a 4 block radius that I'm breaking the law....

 

[ecarfan]

Thought experiment: if Tesla offered fake engine sounds as a switchable option in the Model S, what fraction of owners would turn it on?

I would hope none of them.