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Audi Q7 - the Model X slayer?

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by tonybelding, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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    I found this cute article on Seeking Alpha: http://seekingalpha.com/article/2792435-will-audis-hybrid-q7-cause-teslas-model-x-backlog-to-evaporate

    It's paywalled, but you can read it through the time-honored dodge of disabling Javascript.

    In a nutshell: The Audi Q7 is a diesel PHEV that will cost $35K less than a Tesla Model X and provide over 800 miles of highway range.

    quote: "With the Audi Q7 plug-in hybrid likely being 1/3rd cheaper than the Tesla, and having close to three times the range, you would have to be a very anal/pedantic extremist, religiously opposed to even the slightest few drops of liquid fuels, to go with the Tesla X over the Audi Q7."

    Therefore, he suspects that many of the Model X pre-orders may end up getting cancelled in favor of an Audi. Needless to say, the author is shorting Tesla stock.

    I think the easiest way to debunk his argument is to turn it on its head. He believes the Q7 PHEV will be around $75K "reasonably equipped", and you'll get 22 miles of electric-only range from it. Hmm... You know, I could get a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD with the diesel engine for about, let's say, $44K. That is a heck of a lot less than the $75K Audi Q7 hybrid! In fact, you might just "have to be a very anal/pedantic extremist" just to spend that much more money for a piddling 22 miles of electric driving range.

    So... From where I sit, the people who are lined up to buy a Model X (all name-calling aside) are there because they want a BEV that works like a BEV and drives like a BEV. The Jeep provides none of that, and the Audi will provide only a wee little bit of that. It's not a direct competitor.

    This is part of a bigger picture. Lots of companies now are touting PHEVs. Another site posted a list of 15 upcoming "electric cars" for 2015 -- and of the 15 listed, only 2 were actual electric-cars-as-such, meaning BEVs: the Tesla Model X and the Rimac hypercar. Many of these PHEVs are being touted as Tesla competitors, even though their power train is more akin to the Chevy Volt. Where's the logic? Where's the real competition going to come from?
     
  2. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

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    Oh yeah, I going to run out and get a "clean diesel" in favor of an all electric car. Going down to the Audi dealership right now, cannot wait.
     
  3. ScepticMatt

    ScepticMatt Member

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    I've seen this two days ago, but this is nothing more than poorly researched FUD by a Tesla short.
    Because he doesn't even correct errors after they were pointed out in comments, I opted against posting it here.

    For example, he quotes 6.0 s from 0-60 miles for the Q7 in EV mode when it actually takes 6.1 seconds for 0-37.
    Which is much slower than the current gen leaf by the way (0-30 mph in 3.4 s, 0-60 mph in 10.3 s).
    He then goes on and on how 0-60 in 6s is fast and few will care for anything better in some X versions .

    I also have issue with his other statements like 22 miles allowing the majority of commutes being in EV only mode.
     
  4. CHGolferJim

    CHGolferJim Member

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    As an EV advocate, I find the PHEV alternatives coming to market very exciting with greater potential to reduce carbon emissions than BEV for quite some time. My guess is they take share from ICE cars much faster than BEV, and become the dominant class of automobiles. Won't the battery technology improvements that will improve BEV range and lower pricing also do the same for PHEV thus accelerating market share gains?

    i hope to buy an S85D in 2015, and possibly a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV as a second family car (a large SUV with 65mpg per Robert Llewellyn).
     
  5. 3mp_kwh

    3mp_kwh Member

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    And if people find they somehow prefer the electric power of the Audi, and the range turns out to be like the 75k Porsche Cayenne, they wil have all of 14 miles to enjoy it. All of VW/Porsche/Audi plug-ins, that have an engine, have 11 kwhs of storage, or less.
     
  6. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    The only possible value of plug ins that I can see is that they allow for a lot more people to drive on battery as manufacturers live within the existing cell supply constraints. Other manufacturers can not make pure BEVs with range; they simply do not have the cells even if they had the will. Plug ins do end up allowing for more electric miles traveled......
     
  7. dmdrums

    dmdrums Member

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    Looks like Audi may be using a different battery on the Q7 PHEV. Chargedevs.com is showing 17.3 kWh for the battery. Maybe it will get 20-25 miles range. I suppose it helps that the new design is more aerodynamic and sheds 700 pounds too.
     
  8. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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    I don't really want to dump on PHEVs too much. It hasn't been too long since a lot of people in the car business thought GM was crazy for making the Volt. My how attitudes have changed! PHEVs are popping out of the woodwork now. This is a good thing.

    I do think that a costly SUV with a mere 22 miles of EV range grafted onto the existing platform is... well... questionable. It's not exactly the sort of breakthrough that is going to excite many people or transform our world of transportation.
     
  9. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

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    Yes, I agree on the PHEV. Most of my friends need more miles and do not want to spend 100k for a BEV, and hybrid is better than an ICE. Come 2017 when Tesla comes out with the $35000 mass market car then that argument does not make as much sense.
     
  10. bxr140

    bxr140 Member

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    I think its just as much if not more about the charging constraints. Plug ins provide a gateway to motorists unwilling/afraid to change to a full BEV lifestyle.

    PEHVs are unequivocally a good thing for BEVs, even if they chap my ass when they hog the chargers at work... :cursing:
     
  11. 3mp_kwh

    3mp_kwh Member

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    #11 3mp_kwh, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
    17.3kwh doesn't score with 20-25 miles of EPA range, if we look at all their <10kwh cars where the expected EPA miles are around the same. Q7 is a bigger vehicle, but would that require doubling the storage? It also looks to be going more CUV, than SUV, from the pics. So, smaller, and more efficient. Then, with, say, 13 kwh of usable, out of the 17.3kwh total, its electric efficiency would be an awful, sub-2 miles per kwh. Only a couple of the VW Group cars are over 10kwh of storage, with most, including the 918, between 8-9kwh.

    Another wonder is the choice of an 8 speed transmission, with the diesel. That makes for a normal, non-range extended, ICE drivetrain. Neither Volt, nor i3 (the only two above 12kwh, if we include the Outlander) did this. You could argue the Volt's engine is close to "normal", but its link up through the transmission very much isn't. This much storage, with this ICE/transmission, would be an unusual first. It would affirm, to me, they aren't coming around with EREV.

    Sorry, it just doesn't add up, and I don't cut them slack. Lithium isn't precious, and VW has the resources to do its own cells and stick them in their >70k cars. If 17kwh show up in the Q7, great, It'll be a fast burn.
     
  12. woof

    woof Model S #P683 Blue 85 kWh

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    Do realize this has been John Petersen's anti-Tesla thesis? That fewer batteries in more cars is will use less gas than more batteries in fewer cars. If you assume batteries are scarce, and that reducing gas usage is the goal, then putting those scarce batteries in low kWh PHEVs has more impact than "wasting" them on high kWh BEVs.

    Of course, Tesla's answer is to build the gigafactory, thus batteries will not be scarce for Tesla. Dunno what the other's are gonna do...oh, yes I do, they'll end up buying from Tesla who has the foresight and gumption to make the investment where other's do not.
     
  13. smac

    smac Active Member

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    I suspect here in the UK it will go down an absolute storm if I'm honest.

    Outlanders have been selling like cray, not because they are a good 4x4, a prestigious brand, or they are more economical than the diesel version, but purely they cost nothing on your company car tax bill...

    I predict what will happen here is company car drivers faced between the choice of paying £000's a year in company car tax for an A6 will spend the savings on the more prestigious Q7. It's a real shame here that there are NO taxation benefits between a PHEV and a BEV, so the X will face a bit of a headwind if I'm honest.

    Worsening the forecast, you are much more likely to get Audi to cut you deal and get a good monthly rate, and the insurance and maintenance will be half. Yes you could save on fuel, but if most of your journeys are in EV range (average commute here is <20 miles), this benefit disappears too.
     
  14. hemants

    hemants Member

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    An A4 wagon and a Mk IV golf can both fit a dishwasher in the back, a Q7 cannot.

    What a LOL

    (True story, friend of mine had to borrow my car to bring a dishwasher home)
     
  15. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

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    q7.jpg

    The botched new grille is not going to do it any favors.
     

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