Audi re-focusing on Hydrogen...

[srs5694]

Exactly, the truly radical part of a phev or bev is the charge at home capability. No dependance on a monopoly infrastructure for ~90% of your daily transport needs. Hydrogen keeps you in the herd.

Ummm.... What is an electric utility, if not a "monopoly infrastructure?" In fact, the electric utility is more of a monopoly than a gas station -- I can choose to add gas at any a dozen or so chains or small gas stations in my area, but I have pretty much no choice but to use my local electric company for electricity, either directly or via a third-party supplier (like Tesla with its Superchargers). Of course, if you've got a truly off-grid electricity supply, these comments don't apply to you, but most people live on-grid.

Even if you've got solar panels, those alone don't take you off-grid -- your power goes out when the grid goes down, and the utility can cut you off at any time. Solar panels plus a battery (or other fuel) backup system will help in case of a short-term outage, but you're still tied to the electric utility in the long term.

 

[SR22pilot]

I can see hydrogen being useful for shipping, commuter airlines and perhaps long haul trucking. If you 4X battery energy density then remove long haul trucking and maybe commuter airlines. The large energy requirements of ships would still make charging a problem due to the required infrastructure.

 

[Saghost]

Ummm.... What is an electric utility, if not a "monopoly infrastructure?" In fact, the electric utility is more of a monopoly than a gas station -- I can choose to add gas at any a dozen or so chains or small gas stations in my area, but I have pretty much no choice but to use my local electric company for electricity, either directly or via a third-party supplier (like Tesla with its Superchargers). Of course, if you've got a truly off-grid electricity supply, these comments don't apply to you, but most people live on-grid.

Even if you've got solar panels, those alone don't take you off-grid -- your power goes out when the grid goes down, and the utility can cut you off at any time. Solar panels plus a battery (or other fuel) backup system will help in case of a short-term outage, but you're still tied to the electric utility in the long term.

You're not wrong.

I'd argue that you have more options when dealing with the electric company - including going off grid with wind or solar or even a generator dependant on oil again. I'd also argue that the electric company is a much more regulated monopoly, which gives you some protections.

The important point for today's discussion, though, is that it's a *different* monopoly than the current entrenched interests, and so they continue to fight it with all the tools they have handy, including offering hydrogen as a "better" alternative.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Audi Loses Faith In Batteries, Restarts Hydrogen Powertrain Development

Another publication that doesn't know how to represent the content of an article in the headline. It's about diversification and hedging against possible material shortages in battery production, rather an a 180 on BEV production.

Clickbait pure and simple.

Judging by some replies here, a lot of people are reacting to the headline rather than the content.

The news comes from one of Audi’s chairmen, Bram Schot, who mentioned that the company’s aim to diversify its alternative powertrain portfolio is a way to avoid the consequences of a battery shortage as well as to better serve customer demands...

 

[Merrill]

You're not wrong.

I'd argue that you have more options when dealing with the electric company - including going off grid with wind or solar or even a generator dependant on oil again. I'd also argue that the electric company is a much more regulated monopoly, which gives you some protections.

The important point for today's discussion, though, is that it's a *different* monopoly than the current entrenched interests, and so they continue to fight it with all the tools they have handy, including offering hydrogen as a "better" alternative.

I wish our power companies were more regulated but unfortunately the California Public Utilities Commission is in bed with them. They just sign off on whatever they want, including trying to make rate payers responsible for the cost of the wildfires.

 

[Saghost]

I wish our power companies were more regulated but unfortunately the California Public Utilities Commission is in bed with them. They just sign off on whatever they want, including trying to make rate payers responsible for the cost of the wildfires.

Still more regulated than the oil industry. Perhaps not currently regulated enough in some areas, though.

 

[SR22pilot]

I wish our power companies were more regulated but unfortunately the California Public Utilities Commission is in bed with them. They just sign off on whatever they want, including trying to make rate payers responsible for the cost of the wildfires.

I believe the term you are looking for is regulatory capture.

 

[ralph142]

Ummm.... What is an electric utility, if not a "monopoly infrastructure?" In fact, the electric utility is more of a monopoly than a gas station -- I can choose to add gas at any a dozen or so chains or small gas stations in my area, but I have pretty much no choice but to use my local electric company for electricity, either directly or via a third-party supplier (like Tesla with its Superchargers). Of course, if you've got a truly off-grid electricity supply, these comments don't apply to you, but most people live on-grid.

Even if you've got solar panels, those alone don't take you off-grid -- your power goes out when the grid goes down, and the utility can cut you off at any time. Solar panels plus a battery (or other fuel) backup system will help in case of a short-term outage, but you're still tied to the electric utility in the long term.

my utility is a public one, making it vastly different than exxon-mobil. but, modify my statement above if you'd like to: oil producers.

 

[Big Earl]

I can see hydrogen being useful for shipping, commuter airlines and perhaps long haul trucking. If you 4X battery energy density then remove long haul trucking and maybe commuter airlines. The large energy requirements of ships would still make charging a problem due to the required infrastructure.

Long haul trucking and commuter airlines should be replaced by electric high speed rail. It’s a huge investment but the long-term emissions reductions are huge.

 

[S'toon]

Long haul trucking and commuter airlines should be replaced by electric high speed rail. It’s a huge investment but the long-term emissions reductions are huge.

 

[Brando]

Space X doesn't use H2

Blue Origin does use H2 - started 2 years before Space X ?? perhaps that is a problem ??

Storing H2 almost impossible - so small it even migrates thru metals. slowly, but still ...

 

[acoste]

Space X doesn't use H2

Blue Origin does use H2 - started 2 years before Space X ?? perhaps that is a problem ??

Storing H2 almost impossible - so small it even migrates thru metals. slowly, but still ...

Quoting from the article I linked earlier Exclusive: Toyota Hydrogen Boss Explains How Fuel Cells Can Achieve Corolla Costs

"
The hydrogen used in fuel cell cars is pressurized, not liquid, and it won’t escape. However, it may escape those who still copypaste a 13-year-old, and long outdated paper.

Large scale storage of liquid hydrogen, on the other hand, is extremely practical, I learn over a second coffee from Toyota’s expert for advanced hydrogen storage systems: “At Japan’s space station in Tanegashima, enough liquid hydrogen to power a number of rocket launches is stored for many months with evaporation of less than 1 % of volume.” Even that is not wasted, and is used for power generation or other applications.

"

 

[acoste]

Yeah, because hydrogen is in such a position to ramp up quickly, and produce more vehicles than others.

The trillions of dollars in hydrogen production, transport, and storage are just flowing in around the world.

Hydrogen is inexpensive, and is ramping up exponentially compared with the electric infrastructure already in place.

I don't know how fast it will ramp up. Bosch says 20% of the zero emission vehicles will use fuel cells in 10 years. If that's true, it makes sense for car makers to release such products since the cost of design isn't much.

Existing natural gas pipelines and storage can be used for Hydrogen. That might speed up the process. Also there is a new research about solar panels that generate Hydrogen directly.

 

[Saghost]

Space X doesn't use H2

Blue Origin does use H2 - started 2 years before Space X ?? perhaps that is a problem ??

Storing H2 almost impossible - so small it even migrates thru metals. slowly, but still ...

Hydrogen as rocket fuel is an entirely different discussion from hydrogen fuel cell powered cars.

Right now, liquid hydrogen with liquid oxygen has the highest specific impulse of any rocket fuel we have (unless you count ion engines that can't produce a thrust to weight ratio high enough to lift against a gravity well.)

 

[RDoc]

<snip>
Existing natural gas pipelines and storage can be used for Hydrogen. That might speed up the process. Also there is a new research about solar panels that generate Hydrogen directly.

I don't believe that is correct. While it is possible to blend hydrogen into natural gas at relatively low concentrations (<15%), natural gas infrastructure would require major upgrades and replacements to use pure hydrogen. The metal pipe, seals, pumps and valves all would require replacement or upgrades as I understand it. Hydrogen is very hard on most materials because of embrittlement and it leaks very easily.

 

[Brando]

The Ghost Hydrogen Station - The Reykjavik Grapevine

Renewable energy in Iceland - Wikipedia

Iceland started trying to figure out how to use hydrogen as a fuel since 1970s. Been great for taxpayer supported research. Seems to take 10-15 years to forget results and try again.

Sun -> PV -> charge battery -> run electric motor
Sun -> PV -> create hydrogen -> store hydrogen -> fuel cell -> charge battery -> run electric motor
(yes, all fuel cell cars have batteries charged by the fuel cell)

wonder which is cheaper??

EU funded project for some details
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Icelandic-hydrogen-refueling-station_fig1_228960942
reminder to read top article to see how it all worked out

=========================
you can participate in the future - get your Honda hydrogen car here:
2019 Honda Clarity Fuel Cell – Hydrogen Powered Car | Honda
of course, similar to battery cars, you need to adjust changing fuels, for example:
Hydrogen supply shortage leaves fuel cell cars gasping in California (Updated)

Hawaii experiment: Safely Making, Storing and Dispensing Hydrogen
(compare to PV solar panel and powerwall)

 

[acoste]

I don't believe that is correct. While it is possible to blend hydrogen into natural gas at relatively low concentrations (<15%), natural gas infrastructure would require major upgrades and replacements to use pure hydrogen. The metal pipe, seals, pumps and valves all would require replacement or upgrades as I understand it. Hydrogen is very hard on most materials because of embrittlement and it leaks very easily.

There are existing systems that uses both, however I don't know if there was any modification regarding seals to the original system so I should have worded it more carefuly: 2 Underground hydrogen storage | Global CCS Institute this article must be more than 10 years old because Praxair operates the storage in Texas for over 10 years.

 

[acoste]

Sun -> PV -> charge battery -> run electric motor
Sun -> PV -> create hydrogen -> store hydrogen -> fuel cell -> charge battery -> run electric motor
(yes, all fuel cell cars have batteries charged by the fuel cell)

wonder which is cheaper??

minor comments:
- fuel cell is cheap once mass produced. EV needs large battery while FCEV needs a small one. In mass production FCEV is cheaper.
- Fuel cell feeds the motor directly. And the battery is there to balance the load's variation.
- other than the Mirai and the Clarity there is a more conventional looking Hyundai Nexo as well with 380 miles of range.


Fuel cell solution in general is less efficient than just a simple battery solution, but as mentioned battery production is slow and energy storage can't be solved with batteries. Fuel cell does provide an alternative although it's not perfect. It is a lot cheaper to achieve 100% renewable energy with fuel cells + batteries than with batteries only.

 

[RDoc]

There are existing systems that uses both, however I don't know if there was any modification regarding seals to the original system so I should have worded it more carefuly: 2 Underground hydrogen storage | Global CCS Institute this article must be more than 10 years old because Praxair operates the storage in Texas for over 10 years.

Those are storing H2 in salt caverns etc. That's a very far cry from the existing natural gas infrastructure. In particular, there is no widespread distribution system for H2 and the natural gas tanks one sees around cities are pretty unlikely to work for H2 without extensive work.

From what I can see, the entire H2 storage and distribution system for fuel cell cars would have to be built pretty much from scratch.

 

[RDoc]

minor comments:
- fuel cell is cheap once mass produced. EV needs large battery while FCEV needs a small one. In mass production FCEV is cheaper.
- Fuel cell feeds the motor directly. And the battery is there to balance the load's variation.
- other than the Mirai and the Clarity there is a more conventional looking Hyundai Nexo as well with 380 miles of range.


Fuel cell solution in general is less efficient than just a simple battery solution, but as mentioned battery production is slow and energy storage can't be solved with batteries. Fuel cell does provide an alternative although it's not perfect. It is a lot cheaper to achieve 100% renewable energy with fuel cells + batteries than with batteries only.

The lowest cost I've been able to find for an automotive fuel cell stack is Toyota claiming they can get the cost down to$8K with mass production. That's about what Tesla can do for a 75kWh battery. Then there's the issue of storing the H2. The numbers I've seen are about $20 per kWh.

Taking the two together, and adding in developing and running a new distribution system for H2 I don't see how it would be cheaper to go with H2 than batteries.