Audiophiles w/ Model 3's

[avesraggiana]

No I'm talking about from inside the passenger cabin. This would involve taking out the seats and the carpet. Definitely a big job. I've taken out the back seat but there's really not much that can be done in terms of dynamat because most of it is battery and charging assembly and I'm not going to put stuff on that

Okay. Thanks for clarifying. I had a feeling you meant you were going to come at it from inside the passenger cabin.

A big job indeed. That's why I balked when I was quoted the cost of ripping out everything bolted to the floor of my old Honda minivan to have sound insulation installed on the floorpan, firewall, etc.

I myself would never attempt what you're doing, mucho kudos to you. I'll continue watching this thread for your progress.

 

[dfwatt]

Okay. Thanks for clarifying. I had a feeling you meant you were going to come at it from inside the passenger cabin.

A big job indeed. That's why I balked when I was quoted the cost of ripping out everything bolted to the floor of my old Honda minivan to have sound insulation installed on the floorpan, firewall, etc.

I myself would never attempt what you're doing, mucho kudos to you. I'll continue watching this thread for your progress.

It certainly helps that I've done this before. It also helps that the doors were exceptionally easy to disassemble except for the pop in clips which took a lot of force. Everything about the car is pretty easy in terms of disassembly though. If you want to start somewhere I would definitely recommend the doors because you got the most immediate return in terms of first of all how the door sounds when you shut it and also the front doors resonate notably less in terms of bass frequencies as the volume gets higher. That big front woofer really starts things going so there's an immediate payback on the front doors.

 

[dfwatt]

SoundSkins Pro + Rings along with Blackhole is an excellent combination.

____

And to anyone shopping around for speakers/subs, I highly recommend Audiofrog. Amazing sounding components and subs, and the service is top notch. Easy contact with the CEO and they're active on the largest car AV forums.

I'm sure they make great high-quality drivers. Unfortunately none of their woofers at least judging from my disassembly of the car in terms of available space in the front door and the rear doors will fit. The front door Mount is extremely shallow there's about an inch of bracket space and then another inch and change behind that before you run into a what looks like a structural beam in the door. So a deep woofer is simply not going to fit and from Front Edge to the back of the magnet can't be more than about two and a half inch or maybe 2 and 3/4 tops.

What everybody is waiting for is the pop in replacement drivers from Bad Design. See the link on the next page. These are plug-and-play and I'm sure they're going to also be high quality. If you have a choice, you always want something that sits in the existing brackets and plugs into the existing wiring. Of course you can rip the whole system out and start from scratch but now you're talking five grand. And that's the kind of money you will not get back on resale. You might get a small fraction of it but that's it

 

[dfwatt]

wouldn't it have been awesome if Tesla just had the whole car already dynamatted or really well quiet.

Part of the problem with that is that I do not believe that large irregularly contoured areas can be dynamatted by a robot. In other words large flat surfaces you can think in terms of putting on dampening compound, on an assembly line and reasonably efficiently. They actually did this in the trunk. But around all the irregularly contoured areas you'd have to essentially prefab something and then press it on. I believe they pretty much took an industry-standard approach. In other words they did closed cell foam in a lot of locations and the car frankly is not noisy per se it's just that the absence of drivetrain noise makes road noise more Audible. And it is clear that they took some significant measures even there. For example the Tesla specific tires contain acoustic foam which no other version of the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S actually contains. This does make a difference according to testing somewhere around 1 DB.

Could they have done more? For sure. But I suspect that they did a pretty standard cost benefit analysis on this and where they drew the line in my judgment anyway was not unreasonable. I'm sure they were under ferocious pressure to contain costs across the board given how much money they were spending on the really critical meat of the electric drivetrain and Battery system. Everyone has commented on how their Electronics have military grade and very impressive surface mounted Tech. So I'd cut them some slack on this point. Perhaps the Model Y will have slightly better sound dampening because I think they have heard from a lot of people that the Model 3 is somewhat noisier than people like. The RPM Tesla noise reduction kit in terms of reducing wind noise around the glass sections looks like it's your single best return on the dollar in that regard. After that I would say Dynamatting the doors especially the front doors give you an immediate benefit as well.

 

[TeeEmCee]

Part of the problem with that is that I do not believe that large irregularly contoured areas can be dynamatted by a robot. In other words large flat surfaces you can think in terms of putting on dampening compound, on an assembly line and reasonably efficiently. They actually did this in the trunk. But around all the irregularly contoured areas you'd have to essentially prefab something and then press it on. I believe they pretty much took an industry-standard approach. In other words they did closed cell foam in a lot of locations and the car frankly is not noisy per se it's just that the absence of drivetrain noise makes road noise more Audible. And it is clear that they took some significant measures even there. For example the Tesla specific tires contain acoustic foam which no other version of the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S actually contains. This does make a difference according to testing somewhere around 1 DB.

Could they have done more? For sure. But I suspect that they did a pretty standard cost benefit analysis on this and where they drew the line in my judgment anyway was not unreasonable. I'm sure they were under ferocious pressure to contain costs across the board given how much money they were spending on the really critical meat of the electric drivetrain and Battery system. Everyone has commented on how their Electronics have military grade and very impressive surface mounted Tech. So I'd cut them some slack on this point. Perhaps the Model Y will have slightly better sound dampening because I think they have heard from a lot of people that the Model 3 is somewhat noisier than people like. The RPM Tesla noise reduction kit in terms of reducing wind noise around the glass sections looks like it's your single best return on the dollar in that regard. After that I would say Dynamatting the doors especially the front doors give you an immediate benefit as well.

I took some comparative measurements of my Model 3 vs my diesel Audi. On average, the sound pressure level is about the same but, to my ears, the Tesla is way louder. The max level shown in these screenshots (the grey series in the chart) seems to indicate that the Tesla is indeed a bit louder (the momentary reading shown in red was lower for the Tesla). I believe it's the the type and frequency of the sounds in the Tesla that makes us perceive them as louder and more unpleasant. The impact noise over washboard concrete (which is what the majority of the roads are made of around where I live) is especially unpleasant in the Model 3.

Edit: Measurements taken on the same road, in similar traffic conditions (some 30 mins apart), at about 65 mph.

Audi Q7 (diesel):

Tesla Model 3:

 

[dfwatt]

I took some comparative measurements of my Model 3 vs my diesel Audi. On average, the sound pressure level is about the same but, to my ears, the Tesla is way louder. The max level shown in these screenshots (the grey series in the chart) seems to indicate that the Tesla is indeed a bit louder (the momentary reading shown in red was lower for the Tesla). I believe it's the the type and frequency of the sounds in the Tesla that makes us perceive them as louder and more unpleasant. The impact noise over washboard concrete (which is what the majority of the roads are made of around where I live) is especially unpleasant in the Model 3.


Audi Q7 (diesel):
View attachment 377864

Tesla Model 3:
View attachment 377865

Thanks for posting that. I agree and so does the psychoacoustic research literature on this that certain frequencies appear to be more grating on our ears and brains. I have yet to see a psychoacoustic spectral plot of road noise but what I do notice is that the car and the tires are amazingly noisy over concrete and much better over asphalt. While this is true for just about every tire and every car it seems dramatically so in the model 3.

 

[TeeEmCee]

Thanks for posting that. I agree and so does the psychoacoustic research literature on this that certain frequencies appear to be more grating on our ears and brains. I have yet to see a psychoacoustic spectral plot of road noise but what I do notice is that the car and the tires are amazingly noisy over concrete and much better over asphalt. While this is true for just about every tire and every car it seems dramatically so in the model 3.

I don't know this for a fact, but I believe the compound of the original 18" Michelins, combined with the rather high tire pressure, contribute more than just a bit to the perceived roughness. A tire like the Continental DWS would probably help with the impact noise and the overall perception of ride quality.

 

[dfwatt]

I don't know this for a fact, but I believe the compound of the original 18" Michelins, combined with the rather high tire pressure, contribute more than just a bit to the perceived roughness. A tire like the Continental DWS would probably help with the impact noise and the overall perception of ride quality.

I have the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. Phenomenal Tire. Wouldn't even think about changing them out but they are very noisy over concrete as well

 

[Magnets!]

You can see in the pictures that I posted where the trunk liner actually is pulled up to expose the dynamating that I've done the trunk liner material itself appears to contain a significant amount of what I am presuming is some form of closed-cell foam insulation. Still probably better to have both the traditional foam insulation and dynamating but I think they paid attention to reducing resonant noise from the trunk. Did they do enough? Probably not. But it's not like they did nothing

Oh I assumed those stock strips were mass loaded vinyl to stop resonance. Is it more like foam? It doesn't seem to me that spot placing foam would do any good.

 

[Magnets!]

I took some comparative measurements of my Model 3 vs my diesel Audi. On average, the sound pressure level is about the same but, to my ears, the Tesla is way louder. The max level shown in these screenshots (the grey series in the chart) seems to indicate that the Tesla is indeed a bit louder (the momentary reading shown in red was lower for the Tesla). I believe it's the the type and frequency of the sounds in the Tesla that makes us perceive them as louder and more unpleasant. The impact noise over washboard concrete (which is what the majority of the roads are made of around where I live) is especially unpleasant in the Model 3.

Edit: Measurements taken on the same road, in similar traffic conditions (some 30 mins apart), at about 65 mph.

I've been using the same app for my testing. I do my testing at 74 mph on a concrete highway and at stock was at 73.9 dB. With the RPM wind strip I'm at 72.3. Is your number stock? I download the data and average it over a two mile segment.

 

[dfwatt]

Oh I assumed those stock strips were mass loaded vinyl to stop resonance. Is it more like foam? It doesn't seem to me that spot placing foam would do any good.

Yes the strips that are underneath the Dynamat are probably some kind of either Mass loaded vinyl or rubberized fabric I'm not sure. But on top of that that is essentially pulled up and out but still visible in the top part of the picture is the heavy closed cell foam

 

[Magnets!]

Yes the strips that are underneath the Dynamat are probably some kind of either Mass loaded vinyl or rubberized fabric I'm not sure. But on top of that that is essentially pulled up and out but still visible in the top part of the picture is the heavy closed cell foam

Ah ok, I see what you are talking about now. Interesting and glad to see that. So it's attached to the carpet and not to the floor? I guess that's why I thought the model 3 was bare as when I see it stripped I didn't see the backside of the carpet.

 

[dfwatt]

Ah ok, I see what you are talking about now. Interesting and glad to see that. So it's attached to the carpet and not to the floor? I guess that's why I thought the model 3 was bare as when I see it stripped I didn't see the backside of the carpet.

And I forgot to mention it's used liberally in the backseat as well where it doubles up as seat cushion and noise insulator. That's part of why I didn't bother Dynamating anything in the backseat because I just thought there was really no point. Plus I don't want to be mucking around on top of the battery and charging Electronics. The only place in the back where there might be some utility to Dyna matting is the floorboard but that's hard to get at because you would have to take out the whole carpet, which means taking out the front seats. More than I want to tackle right now

 

[gilscales]

I took some comparative measurements of my Model 3 vs my diesel Audi. On average, the sound pressure level is about the same but, to my ears, the Tesla is way louder. The max level shown in these screenshots (the grey series in the chart) seems to indicate that the Tesla is indeed a bit louder (the momentary reading shown in red was lower for the Tesla). I believe it's the the type and frequency of the sounds in the Tesla that makes us perceive them as louder and more unpleasant. The impact noise over washboard concrete (which is what the majority of the roads are made of around where I live) is especially unpleasant in the Model 3.

Edit: Measurements taken on the same road, in similar traffic conditions (some 30 mins apart), at about 65 mph.

Audi Q7 (diesel):
View attachment 377864

Tesla Model 3:
View attachment 377865

What app is this? i'm about to change to a different tire and would like to see the difference

 

[Magnets!]

That looks like dB Meter which is what I use as well. It has a download function so you can download a CSV with readings every second over several minutes. The base app is free and there is a Pro option you can buy to gain more features.

Can anyone explain the chart to me? Looks like various frequencies but what is the red line compared to the gray?

 

[TeeEmCee]

That looks like dB Meter which is what I use as well. It has a download function so you can download a CSV with readings every second over several minutes. The base app is free and there is a Pro option you can buy to gain more features.

Can anyone explain the chart to me? Looks like various frequencies but what is the red line compared to the gray?

It's a spectral plot across the audible range. Red is momentary and gray is max.

 

[TeeEmCee]

What app is this? i'm about to change to a different tire and would like to see the difference

Please take some before and after screenshots and post back here. How worn are the tires you're replacing? (they tend to get quite a bit louder as they wear)

 

[gilscales]

Please take some before and after screenshots and post back here. How worn are the tires you're replacing? (they tend to get quite a bit louder as they wear)

about 60 % on rear and 80 % front

 

[gilscales]

Please take some before and after screenshots and post back here. How worn are the tires you're replacing? (they tend to get quite a bit louder as they wear)

Ok so tonight I tested both the 19" sport with the stock Conti's at 60% tread front and 75% tread rear at 44 psi warm at 75 mph.

I then mounted my Aero wheel with stock tires and hubcaps on, 41 psi cold and 98% tread on the exact same stretch at 75 mph.

Top image is the 19" and bottom the 18"
I had to stop the test a little earlier on the 19" as cars were coming and I noticed that had an effect of 2 db added to the peak as they drove by in the next lane.

The tests show as exact conditions (that I can duplicate) without traffic next to me at all in a short area of the freeway next to my house.

When I get my new dws 255/40/19 I will post another test.

 

[Magnets!]

hmm, with the different tire pressures between the two tests, I'm not sure you can conclude much.