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Australia government supports for EVs

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Encouraging renters to stretch to buy in a market with record low interest rates is never going to end well.
The next stage of this manipulation is banks taking possession and selling for a discount after rates rise late 2020. Can you work out what happens after rates increase 0.75% with the resultant 20% increase in repayments required?
They are already stretching.
Falling prices just means the ones who were going to stretch will be able to buy more comfortably, and the there will now be a new group who are stretching, who would otherwise have been committed to a life of renting.
As for the risk of future rate rises, I would say the vast majority of home owners are already over-exposed. I still remember the late 80s with rates approaching 20%. It would be all too easy for rates to get to 8, 9, 10% in the next few years. People have been lulled into a false sense of security where they are happy to owe the bank millions because they can just afford the payments. Crazy.
 
Gary, where exactly do you want the borrowed money spent, and to do what? I can see that having a few billion fast growing trees to bind co2 would work. Unless every human on the planet does this nothing this country does in isolation will make a jot of difference at the cost of pushing us into such a deep recession that life won’t be worth living anyway. So what, we slaughter the ruminant herds all over the world because they produce vast quantities of greenhouse gasses? We all become vegetarians with the health risks that entails. We all ride bikes? Except those who medically can’t . We install renewable energy that is relatively unreliable (and which comes at a pollutant cost albeit small as you point out) in a society which has become totally dependent on electricity. Battery powered vehicles produced at co2 cost?
I suppose we COULD all go back to Stone Age, but frankly, I would rather be dead.
As to the source of funds, if everyone is borrowing to do whatever it is you want done, who is doing the lending and how do you propose they be paid back? How is the lender managing to do their share of this life and soul destroying process?
Committing national suicide when most others are not doing the same does not seem too smart to me. It is not a pleasant sight at the bottom of the lemming cliff!!
I see a Darwinian correction coming. I don’t pretend to have any answers. Everyone seems to think coal fired power is a bad thing. Ok let’s accept that. What is your alternative? How quickly can it be implemented and at what cost? How many years of environmental assessments, committee meets, and all other planning garbage that hinders development in this country will your alternative take?
Not sure how international trade is going to happen, no oil fired ships or aircraft.
As I said, how are we going to pay all the borrowings back?
We are far removed from Darwinian selection. Our species is uncharted territory in evolutionary history.

We can collide bosons, predict the future, build institutions, record our knowledge, project manage, engage in marketing, edit our own DNA, fuse hydrogen, master electricity and magnetism.

We may even be smart enough to subsidize renewables!
 
Let me say, that in spite of lobbying for years already that there is very little movement from any government on this subject. The back sliding bureaucratic paper pushing hyenas do nothing for as long as possible, probably on the assumption that nothing will affect them in their ivory towers and they can continue to govern over a few rebellious cinders, come the inevitable disaster.

The actual borrowing would have to be worldwide! Cleaning up our 1.5% won't hurt and might dull the tipping point somewhat; that is something science cannot tell us. The size of the borrowing? Roughly the same scale and intensity as that during World War 2 might do it. There's a lot of documentation on that, so I'll leave the interested reader (if there are any left alive here :)) to seek that for themselves. For scale, the USA borrowed 112% of GDP during World War 2, so it's pretty "radical" like I said at the start. When will it be paid back? No one worried during the conflict of WW2 how it was to be paid back...eventually...at least someone might be around to be asking for it ;) World War 2 was financially paid for, eventually, but a lot of debt was "forgiven" as well it may have been to build a better world (and gain political influence). Compare that with the "reparations" after WW1 that led to (yes) WW2. This is not a "moral" challenge as described by Mr Rudd, but an existential challenge.

What would I spend it on? All the things you mention a.s.a.p. Re-forestation, renewable energy, and so on. I would (spending the money like a drunken sailor here) aim to have every house and business in Australia running on solar power and batteries by 2025 and every coal-fired power station closed down and replaced with wind, solar and battery farms (800 billion to 1 trillion$). I do not see anything "unreliable" about renewables with storage on the large or small scale. There is no evidence, for example, from the wind farm and "big battery" installation in S.A. that it has done anything but a good job. The electricity providers are so pleased with the thing that they want the spot market reduce to 5 minutes from 30 minutes so they can make more money than they are now. It will have paid for itself in 5 years or so, which is pretty good in today's world. None of that matters though when you are faced with existential crises (like WW2, and climate change).

Oil-fired ships and aircraft, particularly the latter, cannot be avoided short term (<5 yrs). Aircraft contribute ~2% to worldwide pollution. Ships are a much worse case. They can individually pollute as much as millions of cars. Therefore, they have to be re-fitted to run on cleaner fuels. Here is a role for Hydrogen as a fuel, (in both cases). Not so great on the roads where we don't want little stations with highly explosive fuels (hydrogen) replacing little stations full of highly explosive fuels (petrol). Strictly managed and controlled use of hydrogen by expert fuelers at airports is a lot safer than every man and his dog handling the stuff. If everything other source of pollution were reduced we could survive a little longer running current aircraft, perhaps, but, given a decent engine that no one has thought to develop yet, who knows? Hydrogen is the most energy dense fuel in the universe. Using it wisely in ships and aircraft engines seems logical.

Overall, I take some solace from the Chinese attitude. They are going renewable and electric at a great rate, most likely because they feel the need to go on breathing :eek: This is one (perhaps only) advantage of a totalitarian system. The order is given, and it is done. We have cheaper and better solar panels (in the main) these days because the Chinese manufactured the *sugar* out of the industry and brought the price down. Competition is fierce and the product is getting better every year.

There is sufficient evidence for me that business could lead much of the expense needed without it costing them anything more if proper government support (both sides are guilty) was provided.
Last year, we stayed at a very expensive but thoroughly enjoyable premium resort on a small isolated fiji island. Half way though I found out that they were power self-sufficient. The manager eventually agreed to a tour, and I found a solar farm next to the vege farm, linked to a couple of tesla power packs. There was a neat control room, and a backup generator should disaster strike. So we enjoyed 4 nights of zero emissions absolute luxury in ‘2nd world’ fiji. At no point were we asked to conserve power.
I then return home where I own a reasonable size commercial building, and pay my annual mandatory $6000 tax for an energy certificate that every building in australia that exceeds 2000sqm (soon to halve) must have to deal in a lease or sale. The certificate lasts 12 months. As an aside my building has the best energy rating in the cbd....but instead of the tax, why isnt it mandated that I must spend and have certified $6000 of solar panels or battery installation or if no space is available a payment direct to a forest for some trees. It would be real action chipped away at with zero cost to business, but both sides of government are drunk on concealed taxes. Fiji can do it. Australia can’t.
 
I note that dBorn didn’t respond to garyjac’s good science lesson. A response along the lines of “thanks for educating me that my statement “Whatever co2 is around now was around in the past." is wrong, and that chemical reactions and oxidisation (burning) of fossil fuels do change the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and that’s the source of the problem causing global warming. I have now learnt something, thank you.” might have been appropriate.
 
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Earth has gone though numerous cold/hot cycles with no claimed human input... Things are likely to get worse then equilibrium will be restored and a new normal will continue until the the next cycle. Thus it has been throughout the multi billion year history of the planet.
You really should stop reading climate change denier websites, or using sound bites from radio shock jocks.

Yes, Earth has gone through numerous hot/cold cycles, but the critical thing always omitted when deniers glibly say that is that this ‘warming cycle’ (if you want to call it that) is occurring at a rate 50-100 times faster than at any point in the past 1 million years (gleaned from CO2 ice core measurements). Further, the average global atmospheric CO2 level is now about 410 ppm, and we know from those ice core measurements that atmospheric CO2 has ranged between 172 and 300 ppm for the past 1 million years.

So we have (1) an unprecedented absolute level of CO2 in the atmosphere and (2) an unprecedented rate of change of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Scientists have a very well researched theory consistent with all measured evidence, and the laws of physics and chemistry, that the cause of this is burning fossil fuels.

If you think that theory is wrong, then please tell us what has caused the Earth’s atmosphere to warm faster now, by a factor of 50 or more, than it has ever done in the past million years?

No amount of borrowing or falsely induced hardship is going to make a jot of difference other than to make some people feel good that “well at least we did something, we tried”.

First, there’s plenty of studies that show decarbonising the economy will cost less than 1% of GDP in the short term, and will grow GDP over the longer term as new industries are created and inefficient (read: money wasting) energy processes are replaced with more efficient ones. Inaction will cost us way more in the future than action now .

Second, the future of humanity depends on making that investment. Maybe you think it’s unimportant that we do our best to pass on a habitable planet to our children and grandchildren, but if you do think that then at least come out and say so.

A global atmospheric temperature rise of 4-5 degrees or more will likely lead to the end of life as we know it on this planet, because every ecosystem we depend on to live will collapse. If we fully decarbonise within the next 10 years we should avoid that scenario, although it’s probably too late to avoid a 2 degree rise. A 2 degree rise will still lead to massive global social and economic disruption over the next 75-100 years (providing 2 degrees doesn’t trigger a runaway positive feedback loop), but if we’ve decarbonised, then human society should survive in some shape or form.
 
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You really should stop reading climate change denier websites, or using sound bites from radio shock jocks.

Yes, Earth has gone through numerous hot/cold cycles, but the critical thing always omitted when deniers glibly say that is that this ‘warming cycle’ (if you want to call it that) is occurring at a rate 50-100 times faster than at any point in the past 1 million years (gleaned from CO2 ice core measurements). Further, the average global atmospheric CO2 level is now about 410 ppm, and we know from those ice core measurements that atmospheric CO2 has ranged between 172 and 300 ppm for the past 1 million years.

So we have (1) an unprecedented absolute level of CO2 in the atmosphere and (2) an unprecedented rate of change of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Scientists have a very well researched theory consistent with all measured evidence, and the laws of physics and chemistry, that the cause of this is burning fossil fuels.

If you think that theory is wrong, then please tell us what has caused the Earth’s atmosphere to warm faster now, by a factor of 50 or more, than it has ever done in the past million years?



First, there’s plenty of studies that show decarbonising the economy will cost less than 1% of GDP in the short term, and will grow GDP over the longer term as new industries are created and inefficient (read: money wasting) energy processes are replaced with more efficient ones. Inaction will cost us way more in the future than action now .

Second, the future of humanity depends on making that investment. Maybe you think it’s unimportant that we do our best to pass on a habitable planet to our children and grandchildren, but if you do think that then at least come out and say so.

A global atmospheric temperature rise of 4-5 degrees or more will likely lead to the end of life as we know it on this planet, because every ecosystem we depend on to live will collapse. If we fully decarbonise within the next 10 years we should avoid that scenario, although it’s probably too late to avoid a 2 degree rise. A 2 degree rise will still lead to massive global social and economic disruption over the next 75-100 years (providing 2 degrees doesn’t trigger a runaway positive feedback loop), but if we’ve decarbonised, then human society should survive in some shape or form.
Do you have a link to the the published study results confirming that the current rate of atmosphere warming is x50 faster than ever before?
 
I note that dBorn didn’t respond to garyjac’s good science lesson. A response along the lines of “thanks for educating me that my statement “Whatever co2 is around now was around in the past." is wrong, and that chemical reactions and oxidisation (burning) of fossil fuels do change the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and that’s the source of the problem causing global warming. I have now learnt something, thank you.” might have been appropriate.
Gave you a thumbs down. In my opinion we are all friends or aquaintances through our love of our tesla cars, so this kind of dig just isn’t necessary or appropriate. Dborn and anyone else are welcome to their opinion. It’s not appropriate to force a change to that opinion.
 
Dborn and anyone else are welcome to their opinion. It’s not appropriate to force a change to that opinion.
Except Dborn stated “whatever CO2 is around now was around in the past” without qualification. That’s not an opinion but a claim of fact. And that “fact” is completely wrong. Being held to account so that scientific misinformation is not propagated further is critical in overcoming the blatant lies and misrepresentations of climate deniers.

If Dborn asked a question instead “is it true that whatever CO2 is around now was around in the past?” or “I thought that whatever CO2 is around now was around in the past?” then it would have elicited a very different response.
 
Respecting the person doesn't let you off the hook for calling out dangerous ideas, or mean that you always agree with them. Indeed it makes it all the more important to think about how best to interact with people who might not have a good cultural/scientific/religious fit with you. The world is a much more interesting place for not being an echo chamber.

OnTopic: people here will be of many opinions and political views, but most have bought Teslas - there has to be something in common there! Perhaps their reasons are environmental, some will be just because they are great cars, but I can't help thinking there is an interest in energy technology, and how we use it now, and how we could use it better. The topic of this thread is automatically political, so a robust discussion is expected...
 
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Do you have a link to the the published study results confirming that the current rate of atmosphere warming is x50 faster than ever before?
Yes, and it’s entirely appopriate that you ask me that! The NOAA website says “Today’s rate of increase is more than 100 times faster than the increase that occurred when the last ice age ended.” - ESRL News: Carbon Dioxide at Mauna Loa reaches new milestone: Tops 400 ppm

Now, you’re going to say the last ice age ended about 12,500 years ago and that’s not 1 million years. Great point! But prior to that the earth’s hot/cold cycles were fairly periodic and not driven by human forces. The most recent glacial period began about 110,000 years ago and ended 12,500 years ago, during that time atmospheric CO2 dropped from about 300 to 200ppm, the fastest change during this time, or any of the previous cycles, was around 0.02 to 0.06 ppm/year (there’s some uncertainty due to the precision with which ice core sample can be dated). Here’s the diagram:

60451301-1AE0-42E3-A52A-516D36771F1B.jpeg

Today, atmospheric CO2 is increasing at a rate of more than 3 ppm/year, i.e. somewhere more than 50x and even more than 100x faster than at any time over the past million years.
 
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