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Australia\NZ Electric Vehicle Charging standards (Ban the J1772?)
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- Australia New Zealand
Zoltrix77
Member
Noticed Nissan Australia looks like its bring the new Leaf to Australia sometime. They have a spot to register interest on their website.
Perhaps we all need to write a letter about the Type 2 socket which has been confirmed for Europe.
Perhaps we all need to write a letter about the Type 2 socket which has been confirmed for Europe.
Oz Will
Member
What I don't get is that this is Beta vs VHS all over again and the sooner people get with the volume player the better. Why wouldn't every government simply now go with a dual socket Mennekes and Chademo set-up. Save every user needing a Frunkfull (there's a new word!) of cables and adaptors and when Telsa Model 3 finally rules, they won't have huge pressure to retrofit. Imagine if every phone docking charger in every airport and hotel only did the old Nokia pin and not Apple - even after the iPhone was a runaway success. That's what it seems to this newcomer has kind of happened in WA because they went very early and is in danger of happening elsewhere? I hope I am wrong....
I am starting to see just USB ports in hotels, so rather than bringing a bunch of 240V adapters for your phone's power supply you just use the USB cable.
I see the same thing happening with AC charging of EVs where there will be a Mennekes socket and you BYO Mennekes to J1772 or Mennekes to Mennekes cable. With high power DC charging I think CCM-2 will win out, although CHADEMO and Tesla Supercharger standards will be around for a while.
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Oz Will
Member
Thanks. You are spot re the convenience of USB (though faster charging often happens with the manufacturer's specific 240v adaptor, vs a generic USB port) so the parallel is very apt. So, any views on whether Tesla will swap to CCM-2? I know the logic of proprietary, but that hasn't been the approach with patents by Tesla and once we move to a version of PAYG and they become a revenue stream, you want everyone at your chargers (and stand by for the interactive multimedia advertising while you charge - my guess as to the first place the webbrowsers will be enabled in Aust is while charging. No risk of an accident and a revenue stream for the taking... Ahem, but I digress)...
Now that Tesla has made multiple native charging protocol ports standard for China-bound cars:
Tesla Reconfigures Model S & Model X Charging Port For Chinese Market
I'm sure it will be a short time before this will happen for Australia too.
Personally, I cannot imagine that we'll have any standard for BEV charging globally as happened for petrol/diesel.
I suggest it is mostly about history. So, I'll offer my greatly compacted, somewhat imprecise, partly inaccurate version of events
ICE production really began in a tiny handful of countries (Germany, France, England, US mostly).
It took more than a decade to settle on left vs right hand drive and the world settled on one or the other, a handful of holdouts at one time had both!
The fueling standard was much easier because by 1910 there were a tiny handful of oil companies controlling almost the complex world supply so they could agree. It took a fueling oligopoly to do that, not vehicle producers.
In electricity the situation was entirely different.
First there was "The War of the Currents" in which the US Department of Energy has a decent summary: (Nikola Tesla won)
The War of the Currents: AC vs. DC Power
The subject of phases also generated (pun intended) lots of static:
Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia (Nikola Tesla was the most logical, perhaps)
So most of the world pretty much agreed, but:
Norway is different than most of Europe;
Some countries never developed a national grid and never really developed national standards, large sparsely populated places) so countries such as Australia and Brazil adopted whatever standard the local power generators imagined. So in Brazil there is single phase and three phase with light domestic frequencies of 110/120 (Rio de Janeiro even has 127!)/220 and 240. I won't go into Australia because you all know it better than I do. The net is that industrial power tends towards standard that are more consistent and residential power is often local. Real national standards exist in most countries. Of course connections are another story. The UK and Brazil have had multiple firm standards that have evolved independently of anybody else. I recall having three types when I lived in the UK. In my house in Rio de Janeiro I have four types, each of which was mandatory, two of which are a plug design used nowhere else in the world.
So, after the digression, here we are with BEV charging standards.
First, there were none, anywhere until a short time ago. Then they began, Just to recall:
EV DC Fast Charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, SAE Combo, Tesla Supercharger, etc
What will happen:
Because CharIN has the most members and the most aggressive BEV builders as members they'll win the bulk of standards:
News: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
Still, CharIN has multiple pin structures for the basic connection (allowing J1772 and more than one Mennekes), so they're not trying to reconcile everything. Tesla uses European Supercharger with a pin modification in Mennekes. They also have Toyota and Tesla among their members as well as tons of electrical manufacturers, charging networks and utilities.
One of the few advantages that is clear is in charging payment standards, both for energy providers and consumers. They can process nearly any payment process used in the world BUT just as with electrical connections, it is the actual service providers who will set whatever they'll support, and the charging station manufacturers/distributors/operators who will decide what they will support.
I know I am rambling, so I will, stop and make conclusions.
You'll never have a single standard in Australia just as there is none for electricity now. Neither will anywhere else other than, in my opinion, China. China will grandfather other systems too, probably both Supercharger and CHAdeMO. So, will most of Europe even though the CCS will be dominant almost everywhere.
I predict that we will all, everywhere carry multiple adapters for Level one and Level two forever. For level three we'll eventually have a CharIN type standard, driven mostly by the ease of allowing myriad access (i.e. wholesale and retail payment) models.
FWIW, I predict that sometime around 2024 there will be a pretty widely adopted global standard for level three. Why then? Because many countries are mandating no more ICE sales after 2025/2030/2040 so being ready for ubiquitous Level three to supply all those new vehicles will result in adoption of a common standard for all such countries (I hope and expect).
In all cases existing non-standard vehicles will have several solutions possible:
1) conversion of the vehicle to accept the new standard. (expensive, long range and/or newer vehicles will probably have that)
2) retention of older standard grandfathered for some time (I predict CHAdeMO will survive for another decade or so)
3) local odd different Level three plug designs will survive, and will have adapters.
The biggest question is what will happen with national/regional networks such as the various evolving Australian Electric Highways, the Canadian Provincial systems in Quebec etc. I am excluding the US and European cases because they are both more varied)
Since each of those has been sponsored by either a utility or a motorist-oriented group I think they will all reequip their networks to accept new standards as they upgrade their caring capacity and/or replaced aging equipment.
For Australia specifically I am confident you'll have a Tesla China-style multiple native charging capacity sometime very soon, as I said at the beginning, because Tesla cannot wait until 20204 or so for common standards to evolve.
Have at me if you disagree or find mistakes in my observations. I am NOT an expert, just very interested in the subject.
Tesla Reconfigures Model S & Model X Charging Port For Chinese Market
I'm sure it will be a short time before this will happen for Australia too.
Personally, I cannot imagine that we'll have any standard for BEV charging globally as happened for petrol/diesel.
I suggest it is mostly about history. So, I'll offer my greatly compacted, somewhat imprecise, partly inaccurate version of events
ICE production really began in a tiny handful of countries (Germany, France, England, US mostly).
It took more than a decade to settle on left vs right hand drive and the world settled on one or the other, a handful of holdouts at one time had both!
The fueling standard was much easier because by 1910 there were a tiny handful of oil companies controlling almost the complex world supply so they could agree. It took a fueling oligopoly to do that, not vehicle producers.
In electricity the situation was entirely different.
First there was "The War of the Currents" in which the US Department of Energy has a decent summary: (Nikola Tesla won)
The War of the Currents: AC vs. DC Power
The subject of phases also generated (pun intended) lots of static:
Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia (Nikola Tesla was the most logical, perhaps)
So most of the world pretty much agreed, but:
Norway is different than most of Europe;
Some countries never developed a national grid and never really developed national standards, large sparsely populated places) so countries such as Australia and Brazil adopted whatever standard the local power generators imagined. So in Brazil there is single phase and three phase with light domestic frequencies of 110/120 (Rio de Janeiro even has 127!)/220 and 240. I won't go into Australia because you all know it better than I do. The net is that industrial power tends towards standard that are more consistent and residential power is often local. Real national standards exist in most countries. Of course connections are another story. The UK and Brazil have had multiple firm standards that have evolved independently of anybody else. I recall having three types when I lived in the UK. In my house in Rio de Janeiro I have four types, each of which was mandatory, two of which are a plug design used nowhere else in the world.
So, after the digression, here we are with BEV charging standards.
First, there were none, anywhere until a short time ago. Then they began, Just to recall:
EV DC Fast Charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, SAE Combo, Tesla Supercharger, etc
What will happen:
Because CharIN has the most members and the most aggressive BEV builders as members they'll win the bulk of standards:
News: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
Still, CharIN has multiple pin structures for the basic connection (allowing J1772 and more than one Mennekes), so they're not trying to reconcile everything. Tesla uses European Supercharger with a pin modification in Mennekes. They also have Toyota and Tesla among their members as well as tons of electrical manufacturers, charging networks and utilities.
One of the few advantages that is clear is in charging payment standards, both for energy providers and consumers. They can process nearly any payment process used in the world BUT just as with electrical connections, it is the actual service providers who will set whatever they'll support, and the charging station manufacturers/distributors/operators who will decide what they will support.
I know I am rambling, so I will, stop and make conclusions.
You'll never have a single standard in Australia just as there is none for electricity now. Neither will anywhere else other than, in my opinion, China. China will grandfather other systems too, probably both Supercharger and CHAdeMO. So, will most of Europe even though the CCS will be dominant almost everywhere.
I predict that we will all, everywhere carry multiple adapters for Level one and Level two forever. For level three we'll eventually have a CharIN type standard, driven mostly by the ease of allowing myriad access (i.e. wholesale and retail payment) models.
FWIW, I predict that sometime around 2024 there will be a pretty widely adopted global standard for level three. Why then? Because many countries are mandating no more ICE sales after 2025/2030/2040 so being ready for ubiquitous Level three to supply all those new vehicles will result in adoption of a common standard for all such countries (I hope and expect).
In all cases existing non-standard vehicles will have several solutions possible:
1) conversion of the vehicle to accept the new standard. (expensive, long range and/or newer vehicles will probably have that)
2) retention of older standard grandfathered for some time (I predict CHAdeMO will survive for another decade or so)
3) local odd different Level three plug designs will survive, and will have adapters.
The biggest question is what will happen with national/regional networks such as the various evolving Australian Electric Highways, the Canadian Provincial systems in Quebec etc. I am excluding the US and European cases because they are both more varied)
Since each of those has been sponsored by either a utility or a motorist-oriented group I think they will all reequip their networks to accept new standards as they upgrade their caring capacity and/or replaced aging equipment.
For Australia specifically I am confident you'll have a Tesla China-style multiple native charging capacity sometime very soon, as I said at the beginning, because Tesla cannot wait until 20204 or so for common standards to evolve.
Have at me if you disagree or find mistakes in my observations. I am NOT an expert, just very interested in the subject.
It is interesting to note that there isn't actually a global standard for fuel. Countries have different standards and manufacturers tailor engines to suit the fuel quality of the country they are selling to.
What is important is for the country choose a standard for charging as they have done for fuel. Australia should adopt EU standards since it is best alligned with our 3 phase 240v per phase supply.
What is important is for the country choose a standard for charging as they have done for fuel. Australia should adopt EU standards since it is best alligned with our 3 phase 240v per phase supply.
It seems common sense has prevailed and Type 2 charging will become the Australian standard.
FCAI TECHNICAL STATEMENT ON EV CHARGING STANDARDS FOR PUBLIC RECHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE | Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries
Specifically:
Although it does not take effect until 2020, can't see why it wouldn't take effect from Jan 1 2018 as all the manufacturers have type 2 compatible versions.
FCAI TECHNICAL STATEMENT ON EV CHARGING STANDARDS FOR PUBLIC RECHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE | Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries
Specifically:
Although it does not take effect until 2020, can't see why it wouldn't take effect from Jan 1 2018 as all the manufacturers have type 2 compatible versions.
MDK
Aussie Member
Miggy
Member
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