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Australia\NZ Electric Vehicle Charging standards (Ban the J1772?)
- Thread starter meloccom
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- Australia New Zealand
Tesla Bjorn has set up a chadmeo adaptor program. Perhaps a similar program would work for J1772 until the Telsa charger roll out is more advanced.
timpoo
Member
Hi guys a bit late to the party here!!
I can't go into too much detail due to NDAs etc, but JET Charge is part of a concerted effort to switch the industry to Type 2, and we are seeing great success. Many companies echo EV drivers' concerns, and changes are afoot.
I personally think that there will be a move to Type 2 in the next generation of EVs and PHEVs that come to market. There will, however, still be a mixed landscape of J1772 and Type 2.
As a result, we have called for a "single approach", rather than a single standard. The biggest impact is actually on DC charging, and not AC. With AC charging, most of that is done at home, so you can buy a tethered charging station that suits you. You can also solve it with socket chargers. For those sites who want to be more comprehensive, you can have a mixture of J1772 and Type 2 stations (though we think this increases costs and decreases utility).
The biggest issue is in DC Charging, where effectively you have 2 or 3 plugs per station: CHAdeMO, CCS and an optional Type 2 AC.
The problem is that within CCS, there is CCS1 and CCS2, which is determined by your choice of AC charging standard.
Therefore, we have called on manufacturers to decide on a single approach: if you are using J1772 then use CHAdeMO as your DC standard, and if you are using Type 2 then use CCS2 as your DC charging standard. That way, charging station operators can confidently roll out CHAdeMO, CCS2 and Type 2 AC for their rapid charging network. Most that are in the planning stages will have CHAdeMO, CCS Type 2 and AC Type 2 per station.
Yes, this will mean that the current gen BMW i3 won't be able to charge from these stations, but we think that's a better outcome than being stuck with J1772 and CCS Type 1.
I'll let you know when there are more concrete updates or when we can say more.
I can't go into too much detail due to NDAs etc, but JET Charge is part of a concerted effort to switch the industry to Type 2, and we are seeing great success. Many companies echo EV drivers' concerns, and changes are afoot.
I personally think that there will be a move to Type 2 in the next generation of EVs and PHEVs that come to market. There will, however, still be a mixed landscape of J1772 and Type 2.
As a result, we have called for a "single approach", rather than a single standard. The biggest impact is actually on DC charging, and not AC. With AC charging, most of that is done at home, so you can buy a tethered charging station that suits you. You can also solve it with socket chargers. For those sites who want to be more comprehensive, you can have a mixture of J1772 and Type 2 stations (though we think this increases costs and decreases utility).
The biggest issue is in DC Charging, where effectively you have 2 or 3 plugs per station: CHAdeMO, CCS and an optional Type 2 AC.
The problem is that within CCS, there is CCS1 and CCS2, which is determined by your choice of AC charging standard.
Therefore, we have called on manufacturers to decide on a single approach: if you are using J1772 then use CHAdeMO as your DC standard, and if you are using Type 2 then use CCS2 as your DC charging standard. That way, charging station operators can confidently roll out CHAdeMO, CCS2 and Type 2 AC for their rapid charging network. Most that are in the planning stages will have CHAdeMO, CCS Type 2 and AC Type 2 per station.
Yes, this will mean that the current gen BMW i3 won't be able to charge from these stations, but we think that's a better outcome than being stuck with J1772 and CCS Type 1.
I'll let you know when there are more concrete updates or when we can say more.
I agree with the summary you've posted, that we need to avoid CCS1 becoming the accepted norm. I think we should also be pushing for j1772 level 2 charging to be avoided for future cars. existing J1772 cars can get by just fine with an adapter.
I'm really not a fan of 'socket' chargers in Australia. It means that basically every EV owner will need to carry a charging lead in their car but for only some stations, rather than being able to pull up and plug in anywhere. I'd much rather see all level 2 chargers as a tethered type 2, and then only the J1772 cars need to get a lead/adapter. I'm sure chargepoint would put up some resistance to that though.
It would be good if this could be supported by our lovely government and maybe added to the Australian Design Rules for cars?
See that NZ are making a decent effort. They have a dedicated and easy to read web page: National guidance for public electric vehicle charging infrastructure | NZ Transport Agency
Particularly, this page is a great summary of charging standards and which ones are recommended: Charging point connectors & socket outlets | NZ Transport Agency
although NZ also recommend 'socket' chargers it's still much better than what we're seeing here.
Great work timpoo
Mark E
Member
Thanks Timpoo
So in future do you expect Tesla to build a CCS2 to Mennakes adapter to route the DC connections as per a supercharger DC connection? (like the ChaDeMo adapter is done) The current Tesla charging port location is too small for a CCS2.
As the whole of Europe including Norway are rolling out Type 2 CCS quick chargers there is a market big enough to warrant Tesla making a Type 2 to CCS (IEC Type 2) adapter. They may also make a USA Tesla to CCS (IEC Type1) adapter but they will never make a Type 2 to CCS (IEC Type 1) adapter.
Combined Charging System - Wikipedia
Chuq
Active Member
Sounds like great news! As a Leaf owner this may sound strange, but bring on the death of J1772 and Chademo!
The problem in Australia is that almost every car has a different connector. Also with the Leaf, I am limited to 3.3kW. A 15A 240V outlet can give up to 3.6kW. So there is no benefit to a J1772 station apart from the fact I don't need to bring a cord, and the operator can use an access card to control/bill usage.
I expect that 12 months after the Model 3 is available here, it will account for over 50% of the market* - so future decisions really depends on what sort of connector it will have.
(*Unless there is a flurry of other manufacturers of course - which would be good news in any case!)
The problem with the suggestion to use tethered Type-2 charging stations is that there is no commercially available adapter to use those stations with J1772 cars. On the other hand, there are abundant supplies of all cables and equipment necessary for J1772 and Type-2 vehicles to use socketed stations. If ChargePoint wants to build a significant presence outside North America, they need to get with the program and provide Type-2 stations. There is simply no good reason for Australia to continue installing J1772 tethered public stations. The New Zealand guidelines are excellent and should be adopted in Australia as well. JMHO.
Zoltrix77
Member
This sounds like some good news, I wish we could know more!
My view is that we won't have to worry about CHAdeMO in the future anyway, I really would be surprised if the next generation Leaf carries a CHAdeMO port outside of Japan. The Hyundai Ioniq has launched with CCS so that is a sure sign its sister company Kia will dump CHAdeMO on its next generation cars.
In regards to current Gen BMW i3's, I see no reason that BMW cannot retro fit all existing cars with the type 2 port, the i3 doesn't support 3phase anyway, so there can't be much to it. This also applies to other European manufacturers that have launched PHEVs in Australia with J1772 AC only ports.
I too am a little concerned that socket chargers are just too much trouble for the non-enthusiast market and would rather see tethered Type 2. For the very limited PHEV/EVs on our roads thus car, this issue with current J1772 vehicles can be solved with third party adaptors. I'm sure existing owners will be fine with that.
I am hoping that Tesla will change to Type 2 with the Model 3, that way the car could natively use third party or Supercharging. They would then only need a CCS adaptor for existing vehicles.
As said previously timpoo, I am very excited and I hope your efforts come to fruition.
Daimler leads $82 million investment in major electric vehicle charging network ChargePoint to expand in Europe
I wonder what this news means for Australia. ChargePoint will undoubtedly develop Type-2 AC charging equipment if they are expanding into Europe. Will they sell that equipment in Australia too? This will mean more competition for Tritium in the DCFC market as well.
I wonder what this news means for Australia. ChargePoint will undoubtedly develop Type-2 AC charging equipment if they are expanding into Europe. Will they sell that equipment in Australia too? This will mean more competition for Tritium in the DCFC market as well.
Chuq
Active Member
Zoltrix77
Member
Wow, that is great news for NZ. Can we possibly get common sense to prevail here in Australia. As mentioned in that press release, it's worth nothing that the 94Ah i3 supports 3phase 11kW AC charging via type 2 and this obviously isn't available on the type 1 i3.
Send this press release off to BMW Australia?
Chuq
Active Member
So the RAC WA EH stations use CCS1.
The new Qld EH stations will use CCS2 (evidence - Cairns site)
The new Adelaide stations use CCS2.
I can confidently say that any stations built in Tas will use CCS2.
NZ uses CCS2.
The Sydney NRMA station uses CCS1 (was this relocated or new hardware?)
Not sure about the others (Canberra, Wollongong, Byron, Gatton, Noosa) although many do have i3's checking in on Plugshare.
It looks like CCS2 is "winning" but BMW needs to make a decision as to whether they will change the ports on the cars over as they have in NZ.
Also is there any decision regarding what will happen in WA? Being mostly segregated it's not urgent but when the first major CCS2 vehicle appears there's going to be a need for a decision one way or the other.
The new Qld EH stations will use CCS2 (evidence - Cairns site)
The new Adelaide stations use CCS2.
I can confidently say that any stations built in Tas will use CCS2.
NZ uses CCS2.
The Sydney NRMA station uses CCS1 (was this relocated or new hardware?)
Not sure about the others (Canberra, Wollongong, Byron, Gatton, Noosa) although many do have i3's checking in on Plugshare.
It looks like CCS2 is "winning" but BMW needs to make a decision as to whether they will change the ports on the cars over as they have in NZ.
Also is there any decision regarding what will happen in WA? Being mostly segregated it's not urgent but when the first major CCS2 vehicle appears there's going to be a need for a decision one way or the other.
MDK
Aussie Member
According to Auto Classic BMW in WA all future i3s will have type2 or type2 CCS.
I don't know, but this news from BMW might help stir things up
I don't know, but this news from BMW might help stir things up
Excellent, our secret plan for world domination seems to be on course.
Hopefully Tesla will develop a CCS2 DC to Tesla "Mennekes" converter for Europe as it will likely be financially viable once Model 3 deliveries hit their stride.
The next step is to sort out AC charging, a Mennekes socket seems the best way to go there, then Leaf, iMiev and sundry PHEVs just purchase the appropriate Mennekes to J1772 cable ande everyone else Mennekes to Mennekes.
Might write to Charegepoint and see what there intentions are.
Also on another similar note, how many people got an email from NRMA asking to do an EV survey?
Most likely just those with an EV insured by them like me.
I'll see if I can contact someone next week and see if I can get permission to post a link to the NRMA survey.
Hopefully Tesla will develop a CCS2 DC to Tesla "Mennekes" converter for Europe as it will likely be financially viable once Model 3 deliveries hit their stride.
The next step is to sort out AC charging, a Mennekes socket seems the best way to go there, then Leaf, iMiev and sundry PHEVs just purchase the appropriate Mennekes to J1772 cable ande everyone else Mennekes to Mennekes.
Might write to Charegepoint and see what there intentions are.
Also on another similar note, how many people got an email from NRMA asking to do an EV survey?
Most likely just those with an EV insured by them like me.
I'll see if I can contact someone next week and see if I can get permission to post a link to the NRMA survey.
The Adelaide EV charger site has 4 Tesla charging stationd, 2 Veefil stations (with Chademo and CCS2 connection) and there is a third charging station (EVlink) which allows charging for 2 vehicles via 2 Mennekes outlets (female). I am not sure if this is AC or DC?
Chuq
Active Member
I'm hoping the Model 3 won't even need an adaptor
CCS Charging options for Model 3Honestly a CCS Combo 2 plug that accepts Tesla charging connectors would be perfect for the European (and Aus/NZ) market.
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