No, 62k is correct I think. It is 60k plus 2k manufacturer incentive portion, i.e. net 60k for the consumer.
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No, 62k is correct I think. It is 60k plus 2k manufacturer incentive portion, i.e. net 60k for the consumer.
Der Spiegel has published some info on the Auto Bild story:
E-Autos: Tesla trickste offenbar, um Kunden Förderprämien zu verschaffen - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Auto
Google Translate for the article:
Google Translate
E-Autos: Tesla trickste offenbar, um Kunden Förderprämien zu verschaffen - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Auto
Google Translate for the article:
Google Translate
Auto-Bild has an online story here:
Kaufprämie für Elektroautos: Infos und Antragsformular - Mauschelei mit dem Elektro-Bonus?
Google Translate for the article:
Google Translate
Kaufprämie für Elektroautos: Infos und Antragsformular - Mauschelei mit dem Elektro-Bonus?
Google Translate for the article:
Google Translate
The German government obviously took Tesla from the incentive list last night. Its no surprise that the German government is almost doing everything VW, BMW and Daimler is asking them in order to protect the market but looking back this has been proven to be a Phyrrhus victory" because finally Germany did lose by doing what the industry was asking for. I found the definition for the incentives anyway ridiculous and don't get why a higher priced car should not get one but that another story.
Tesla announced today:
"Everybody in Germany can order a Model S in the Base version without the comfort option and we did deliver such cars to customers" The car company will check the from "Auto Bild" described cases und apply appropriate measures.
I would not be surprised if this cases will be shown to be some where they customer has been "gently be convinced" by some motivated sales guys to take the option. Bild is known for making a lot up and the government may have used this to discredit Tesla.
Finally the option must be available otherwise Tesla would never state this in the today statement and make themselves vulnerable. Having said that we hopefully will see Tesla be moved back on the list soon.
Tesla announced today:
"Everybody in Germany can order a Model S in the Base version without the comfort option and we did deliver such cars to customers" The car company will check the from "Auto Bild" described cases und apply appropriate measures.
I would not be surprised if this cases will be shown to be some where they customer has been "gently be convinced" by some motivated sales guys to take the option. Bild is known for making a lot up and the government may have used this to discredit Tesla.
Finally the option must be available otherwise Tesla would never state this in the today statement and make themselves vulnerable. Having said that we hopefully will see Tesla be moved back on the list soon.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
My two cents of personal experience:
When the news came that a Model S would be eligable for our eco incentive after all, I got curious and tried to configure one myself.
There was no way to de-select the "Comfort package", so I called our local Tesla store. They told me that this package was mandatory for the base model, so I asked how that fit into the "60K base" limit. They told me quite openly that said base Model was not available for purchase and only there to meet the incentive requirements. Seemed more than shady to me at the time, but since my Model 3 will definitely be under the 60K base limit I didn't bother any further.
And by the way, the 60K limit was not intended to rule out Tesla specifically, but to appease the general public who are very sensitive nowadays towards governement grants given to people who - in their mind - don't deserve it because they are rich enough already.
After all, the Porsche, Merc and BMW hybrid models of their luxury lineups were also excluded from the incentive.
The cheapest Tesla at the time was (and still is) far above the 60K limit, which is obvious when you look at the price of that "Comfort package" option of almost 15K Euro!
When the news came that a Model S would be eligable for our eco incentive after all, I got curious and tried to configure one myself.
There was no way to de-select the "Comfort package", so I called our local Tesla store. They told me that this package was mandatory for the base model, so I asked how that fit into the "60K base" limit. They told me quite openly that said base Model was not available for purchase and only there to meet the incentive requirements. Seemed more than shady to me at the time, but since my Model 3 will definitely be under the 60K base limit I didn't bother any further.
And by the way, the 60K limit was not intended to rule out Tesla specifically, but to appease the general public who are very sensitive nowadays towards governement grants given to people who - in their mind - don't deserve it because they are rich enough already.
After all, the Porsche, Merc and BMW hybrid models of their luxury lineups were also excluded from the incentive.
The cheapest Tesla at the time was (and still is) far above the 60K limit, which is obvious when you look at the price of that "Comfort package" option of almost 15K Euro!
There is at least one poster on TTF-Forum who said their order was cancelled by Tesla and one person who said they did receive the order (without removed or limited features). Whether or not the alleged test buyer by Auto-Bild was a third buyer, is unknown, but Auto-Bild said their buyer also was denied the purchase. And of course there is @AustinPowers above...
I think a natural way out for Tesla is to simply offer the base level for delivery now, which is what in any case they say they are doing. Any unknowns as well as any potential repercussions beyond that would be contigent on what happened in the meanwhile (say October-November) and what BAFA or courts might find out (or be able to show) about what had been going on...
Endlich ist er da • TFF Forum - Tesla Fahrer & Freunde
I think a natural way out for Tesla is to simply offer the base level for delivery now, which is what in any case they say they are doing. Any unknowns as well as any potential repercussions beyond that would be contigent on what happened in the meanwhile (say October-November) and what BAFA or courts might find out (or be able to show) about what had been going on...
Endlich ist er da • TFF Forum - Tesla Fahrer & Freunde
Google Translate / TTF Forum said:
Google Translate / autobild.de said:
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No. It is 69019-11090=57929 and the difference to 60k is the bonus which has to be calculated into the price like that.
Sean Wagner
Member
Tesla has more than enough vocal detractors globally who pick up on every story real or constructed, and in Germany faces hurdles similar to other foreign upscale vehicle manufacturers, combined with the extra Autobahn handicap. Inconsistent build quality is definitely not a selling point there either.
They really need to make the effort of being visibly above board and squeaky clean. The course they set now is going to influence the company for a long time, and Tesla can't rely on massive scale and profits to smooth over the bumps.
They really need to make the effort of being visibly above board and squeaky clean. The course they set now is going to influence the company for a long time, and Tesla can't rely on massive scale and profits to smooth over the bumps.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Why didn't Tesla simply make a software limited S30 Instead of S75 without comfort package - call it the special Euro version. A range of S30 would be on the order of the Leaf - 90 miles, plus acceleration profile of a leaf. They would have much easier time convincing people to upgrade battery capacity (and range) from 30 to 75 for the same price as the comfort package.
Reciprocity
Active Member
This entire thread and issue are patently rediculus. The point of the incentive was to get people to buy EVs for a positive impact on the environment. Comparing this to diesel gate is absurd. That was millions and millions of environment crushing cars vs thousands of cars that meet the goal of the incentives to lower impacts to the environment. And because it's f'n 2000 more expensive then they want it to be so rich people don't get any benefit? The infinite wisdom of socialists. Anything to screw the rich even if it means the environment for with it. The real corruption here is the government colluding with VW, BMW and Daimler to limit Tesla. The clock is ticking in those fools as others have stated, the model 3 is coming and their margins are being attacked relentlessly. Is the mission e going to get these incentives? What about the Audi e Tron? My guess is that they will make a special provision. The government will have to bail out those car companies in ten years, so they are doing whatever they can to prop them up now.
Incentive requirement is "base price" up to 60k.
Tesla tuned "base price" to whatever the limit is.
Tesla is not forced to sell vehicles with base price
if they don't want to. Right now, they also don't
sell Model 3 for base price. Actually they don't have
to sell anything if they want so.
Like Tesla said, this option package is there for
legal reasons. And that is exactly why it is there.
Likely incentive "requirement" will change soon as
it is misleading the way it is now. From "base price
up to 60k" to "purchase price up to **k". Because the
limit doesn't serve the purpose it is made for. Which
I actually agree with - I don't see a reason to incentivise
vehicle that costs that much. I would rather see some
Model 3's to be incentivised rather than all of them.
Model S is not a vehicle that should be incentivised.
And the price limit is also reasonable. It's just unfortunate
that Model S barely misses it. That's the whole point.
It's a hit below the belt from incentive side.
And now Tesla hit's back to show how stupid it is/was.
Unfortunately, Tesla might actually lose this one as the
match is not played at home. Same why VW lost in US.
It's as stupid as Dieselgate scandal*. People shouldn't
go to jail for disobeying rules while they do a lot of good
in the process of breaking the rule/law itself (if you are not
aware what "good" I'm not going to explain this time, offtopic).
If I truly know what I do does more good than bad (and
I can prove it) I have the right to do it, even if it is illegal.
It's like shooting a horse with broken legs - looks like to
be cruel+brutal+savage+barbarous. Usually, the one with
emotions is wrong. And this one is not excluded.
*scandal - I actually like this word as it always hints
about emotional reaction in discussion, usually at a level
that makes the discussion utter nonsense.
PS: Actually, I see a mechanism specifically targeting other
manufacturers and not German makers. Just reminding,
that German vehicles come standard with a seat and a wheel.
Need to option up the car to get the door and buttons on the wheel.
The way incentive was constrained is more shady than what Tesla did.
Tesla tuned "base price" to whatever the limit is.
Tesla is not forced to sell vehicles with base price
if they don't want to. Right now, they also don't
sell Model 3 for base price. Actually they don't have
to sell anything if they want so.
Like Tesla said, this option package is there for
legal reasons. And that is exactly why it is there.
Likely incentive "requirement" will change soon as
it is misleading the way it is now. From "base price
up to 60k" to "purchase price up to **k". Because the
limit doesn't serve the purpose it is made for. Which
I actually agree with - I don't see a reason to incentivise
vehicle that costs that much. I would rather see some
Model 3's to be incentivised rather than all of them.
Model S is not a vehicle that should be incentivised.
And the price limit is also reasonable. It's just unfortunate
that Model S barely misses it. That's the whole point.
It's a hit below the belt from incentive side.
And now Tesla hit's back to show how stupid it is/was.
Unfortunately, Tesla might actually lose this one as the
match is not played at home. Same why VW lost in US.
It's as stupid as Dieselgate scandal*. People shouldn't
go to jail for disobeying rules while they do a lot of good
in the process of breaking the rule/law itself (if you are not
aware what "good" I'm not going to explain this time, offtopic).
If I truly know what I do does more good than bad (and
I can prove it) I have the right to do it, even if it is illegal.
It's like shooting a horse with broken legs - looks like to
be cruel+brutal+savage+barbarous. Usually, the one with
emotions is wrong. And this one is not excluded.
*scandal - I actually like this word as it always hints
about emotional reaction in discussion, usually at a level
that makes the discussion utter nonsense.
PS: Actually, I see a mechanism specifically targeting other
manufacturers and not German makers. Just reminding,
that German vehicles come standard with a seat and a wheel.
Need to option up the car to get the door and buttons on the wheel.
The way incentive was constrained is more shady than what Tesla did.
This ploy by Tesla seems to be Bait and switch. If they advertise something that isn't actually for sale and pull that when customers try to order it, that is bait and switch which is a form of consumer fraud. At least that's how it works in the US. Not only is that unethical, it's illegal.
Now if Tesla did actually deliver base models then it's not bait and switch. Simply pressuring customers not to buy it isn't illegal. It does run counter to Tesla's professed values in terms of sales tactics.
Now if Tesla did actually deliver base models then it's not bait and switch. Simply pressuring customers not to buy it isn't illegal. It does run counter to Tesla's professed values in terms of sales tactics.
But it seems they are also not applicable for the incentive if they don't sell at that base level - at least that is what the government agency seems to be signaling by removing Model S from the list of applicable vehicles.
So where things currently look like they stand is: Tesla isn't forced to sell at base price, and BAFA isn't forced to grant them/their customers the incentive.
That said, now it seems Tesla is promising to sell at base price?
If incentive is "base price must be below 60k" and purchase price can be whatever, then
it makes the restriction even shadier. Because for ICE vehicle's, it would sound like:
If vehicle can be equipped with 3-cylinder engine, then all models in that lineup apply for
green sticker. Therefore BMW M3 applies because BMW 3-series can be equipped with 3-cylinder.
Utter nonsense. So much that there is chance there can't even be a lawsuit
it makes the restriction even shadier. Because for ICE vehicle's, it would sound like:
If vehicle can be equipped with 3-cylinder engine, then all models in that lineup apply for
green sticker. Therefore BMW M3 applies because BMW 3-series can be equipped with 3-cylinder.
Utter nonsense. So much that there is chance there can't even be a lawsuit
Rich don't change their behaviour according to vehicle price (therefore existence of incentives changes nothing for them,
they still prefer Tesla if they like things about it or prefer Porsche if they prefer that one).
Incentives are for those who want to be green but can't afford it due to new tech being more expensive.
Most people with money they worked for do bargain shop. Trust me.
If your goal is to reduce CO2 emissions, then offer a tax break for low CO2 cars.
If you goal is to make EVs more affordable, hand out food vouchers to people who drive electric cars. Make them pay with food stamps basically.
Because if I see you in an EV, I assume you got a government handout, whether you make $50k a year or $500k a year. I've collected about $30k? in tax credits so far. But that's about 10% of my liability over that span of years. And the EVs are in use every day so we are doing what the gov't wants.
I don't think you are morally superior at $50k or $500k when it comes to handouts of our tax monies. In fact, lower income folk might not pay taxes at all after the tax credits. That makes them parasites. At least the rich contribute money to run society.
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@Reciprocity / @McRat I think it might be a cultural difference across the Atlantic.
Irrespective of your views on socialism, the various grants are causing political pain here on the ground. They are perceived by the broader public to be directive incentives for a select set of wealthier people. Germany aren't alone, the UK also set maximum price limits earlier this year for some of our EV incentives due to similar pressure (though we had the common sense to base it on the price actually paid for the car!!)
So I can't see any special exemptions for the eTron or EQ or IPace or... it wasn't about protectionism. (Though you could argue the price point was set at an optimum level for incumbent manufacturers' current product offerings).
Anyway, it looks like Tesla have removed the tax avoidance option (sorry Komfort-Paket delete) from the design studio now the Model S is off the list. So Tesla are now correct in stating "we sell at base price".
We will likely never know what horse trading has gone on behind closed doors, but I wonder if Germany said "look we both know it's gaming the system, stop doing it now and we won't backdate a claim for repayment of the subsidies."
Irrespective of your views on socialism, the various grants are causing political pain here on the ground. They are perceived by the broader public to be directive incentives for a select set of wealthier people. Germany aren't alone, the UK also set maximum price limits earlier this year for some of our EV incentives due to similar pressure (though we had the common sense to base it on the price actually paid for the car!!)
So I can't see any special exemptions for the eTron or EQ or IPace or... it wasn't about protectionism. (Though you could argue the price point was set at an optimum level for incumbent manufacturers' current product offerings).
Anyway, it looks like Tesla have removed the tax avoidance option (sorry Komfort-Paket delete) from the design studio now the Model S is off the list. So Tesla are now correct in stating "we sell at base price".
We will likely never know what horse trading has gone on behind closed doors, but I wonder if Germany said "look we both know it's gaming the system, stop doing it now and we won't backdate a claim for repayment of the subsidies."
No, there is no cultural difference. We Americans are beginning to do the same dumb thing by putting car price caps on EV tax rebates.
Our legislators are often uneducated and lack critical thinking skills. They were elected on attractiveness and who spent the most money running for office most of the time. They are nearly all 'rich' but must coddle what they see as the biologically inferior proletariat to keep their image up. They are mostly out to make a buck and gain power. We are run by unqualified elitists in general.
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