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AUTO BILD: Tesla suspected subsidy fraud in Germany

AnxietyRanger

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
9,408
7,978
EU
@hacer

Can I get a similar condemnation from you for Tesla's actions?

Terrible! What a stupid thing. Volkswagen/Audi was widely known for buying a Tesla and dismantling it, which of course is normal, but certainly in this scenario Daimler is in the wrong. An idiotic self-inflicted wound.

So much for the protectionist idea that German media only attacks Tesla, though? ;)
 
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hacer

Active Member
Apr 13, 2016
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@hacer

Can I get a similar condemnation from you for Tesla's actions?
Similar to the condemnation of Volkswagen? No. Similar to the condemnation that Daimler deserves for fraudulently dismantling some owner's car without their permission? No. I'll agree that Tesla has made some questionable decisions, and has misled a number of customers and that they shouldn't have.

In the instance of the German rebates, I don't have a problem with them making a "base" car that couldn't be ordered. If they did in fact take deposits and then canceled the orders, they shouldn't have done that. But I'm fine with providing no means for a German customer to order a "base" model in the first place. The whole concept of setting a cost threshold that is not the actual cost of the purchase, but instead the cost of some other vehicle is beyond stupid. It deserves to be gamed and I expect that German manufacturers are gaming it too.
 

AnxietyRanger

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
9,408
7,978
EU
@hacer I sense a whiff of a double standard on the latter portion of your message, but of course I don't claim this thread for example is at the same level as Dieselgate. Several people on this thread genuinely give Tesla a pass where they wouldn't give others and that's IMO rather unfortunate. I am giving none of them a pass on unethical behavior.
 

Laserbrain

Member
Aug 15, 2015
198
140
Germany
Denying the incentives to cars which cost more than 60k Euros is not against Tesla it is against moving poor people's tax money into the pockets of rich fat german bastards.

Rich fat german bastards can avoid taxes in Germany, the poor people have to pay them, which is why the rich get richer and the poor poorer. Unfortunately the people in the middle get poorer, too. The 60k base price limit is a good thing.

If you really think this is only against Tesla, try to get the incentive for a Mercedes Benz S-Class hybrid, a Porsche Panamera Turbo S (hybrid) or a BMW i8 hybrid.

Oh, and BTW, the model 3 costs less than 60k Euros. What now? Do you think they will lower the limit to fight Tesla? Laughable.
 
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arnis

Member
Apr 13, 2015
920
751
Estonia
The 60k base price limit is a good thing.
Limit is a good thing but looking at the base price is nonsense.
It's the purchase price that matters.
RFGB (Rich Fat German Bastards) might buy fully optioned Tesla M3 which costs the same as Model S.
Though mid-class will prefer M3 SR. I would like the fact that anybody who buys a M3 for more than 60k
will not get incentive.
 
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Cloxxki

Active Member
Aug 20, 2016
1,362
706
Rotterdam
Limit is a good thing but looking at the base price is nonsense.
It's the purchase price that matters.
RFGB (Rich Fat German Bastards) might buy fully optioned Tesla M3 witch costs the same as Model S.
Though mid-class will prefer M3 SR. I would like the fact that anybody who buys a M3 for more than 60k
will not get incentive.
Policy makers are crazy. These kinds of loopholes are thus provoked. But it's outright fraud unless we can actually get that zero-option car. And I would seriously consider one. I don't buy stuff I can't afford (need a loan for), and I like discounts for stuff I won't need anyway. I have always survived without seat heaters, navigation, cruise controle, etc. I just want a silent car with low marginal cost of driving.
 

Canuck

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2013
6,125
5,777
South Surrey, BC
Yes, well, that was a big part of my intent on the public soul searching there.

Despite our differences, I have respect for you AR. You seem like a real genuine person to me, and you readily admit when you need to try to improve in your views. I need to learn that from you.

If you ever make it to the west coast of Canada, send me a PM. It would be great to meet you over a couple of a beers.
 

AnxietyRanger

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
9,408
7,978
EU
Thanks @Canuck, the feeling is mutual. Even though we've had our tough and even heated exchanges - and we still have them of course (and given real differences in our views, I guess that's how it should be) - I've noted a genuine exchange of thoughts several times now with you. Something I've learned not to take for granted on the Internet.

I must say, perhaps to my shame, that it continues to surprise me. The cynical part of me tends to consider some dialogue hopeless. Your message, once again, brought a ray of hope and a welcome reminder for me to not think the worst. :)
 
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hacer

Active Member
Apr 13, 2016
1,204
5,741
Clarksville, MD
@hacer I sense a whiff of a double standard on the latter portion of your message, but of course I don't claim this thread for example is at the same level as Dieselgate. Several people on this thread genuinely give Tesla a pass where they wouldn't give others and that's IMO rather unfortunate. I am giving none of them a pass on unethical behavior.
Not a double standard, I encourage all car makers to make a mockery of the German "incentive" (and I expect that if you investigate that they actually do). This incentive law was designed to be gamed by the dealership sales model.
 

Carl

Active Member
Supporting Member
Jan 12, 2013
1,743
2,179
Belgium
Why so many threads degenerate towards the "feelings" @AnxietyRanger would or would not have, is a great mystery to me :). Nobody cares about my feelings, and indeed nobody should! @AnxietyRanger: could I politely ask you to stick to the subject matter of a thread, instead of commenting on your feelings (even when you are somewhat provoked to comment on them)? That would be great for the content of all threads concerned. I appreciate your contributions in a lot of threads - but really not when you or somebody else derails a thread wanting to know your "feelings" and the discussion becomes one about your interaction with other forum members rather than about the subject matter of the thread. TMC allows for "private conversations", and that's imho where all "feelings" should be discussed.

Back on topic: re. the "Subsidy Fraud":

- Politics is not always about inventing logical rules, but often about simply inventing rules which pass the test of public opinion (I think). The rule that EV's (even those costing 140,000 EUR) would get a tax credit as long as the base version of such EV (without options) costs less than 60,000 EUR is, well, logically ridiculous, but probably easily passes the public opinion test (99% of people will note the 60,000 EUR threshold and not give it even five seconds of further thought);
- Obviously Tesla should have made (and still make) available, for the German market, an MS without the "Comfort Package". I would not be surprised if only very few people wanted such a version. I can also imagine Tesla trying to incite such buyers to buy the "Comfort Package" , e.g. in terms of delivery dates; nothing wrong with that, I think;
- Has anyone in Germany have the "base" version?;
- If (and only if) not, do we have at least a few, and preferably even several, people claiming that Tesla refused to sell such "base" version?
 
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AnxietyRanger

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
9,408
7,978
EU
@Carl Fair point and PM certainly has been used to discuss such things as well. I will certainly think about your comment.

That said, I sometimes think public thinking out loud can help people understand each other. No? Join in and talk about YOUR feelings too! :)

As nice as it would be, it is not issues that are talking. It is people. And as such understanding where each of us is coming from can be helpful. Sometimes mere talk of the issues leads to misunderstandings...

- Has anyone in Germany have the "base" version?;
- If (and only if) not, do we have at least a few, and preferably even several, people claiming that Tesla refused to sell such "base" version?

I believe we have heard of 1 case where Tesla delivered such a car - well at least the price, the car was not lacking the features (Tesla themselves referred to a plural of deliveries). We also have 1-3 cases we've heard about of Tesla refusing sale of the non-packet car. These are in this thread.
 
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Spidy

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
1,365
1,106
EU
2018er 75D in der Grundkonfiguration? • TFF Forum - Tesla Fahrer & Freunde

Somebody else got the base version and this time they actually disabled features.

One issue seems to be that hey reduced acceleration to 7.5 although at the top when you order it says 4.4

Comfort package actually says "reduced performance (if not selected)" which in my opinion already is rather questionable. But he also asked the Tesla staff what this means and they said this referred to potential battery upgrades which aren't relevant to this model.
_____________

Oh and the government agency is still investigation so a lot of owners not very happy since they can't get their 4000€ .
 
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avoigt

Active Member
Sep 5, 2017
2,848
40,525
Germany
2018er 75D in der Grundkonfiguration? • TFF Forum - Tesla Fahrer & Freunde

Somebody else got the base version and this time they actually disabled features.

One issue seems to be that hey reduced acceleration to 7.5 although at the top when you order it says 4.4

Comfort package actually says "reduced performance (if not selected)" which in my opinion already is rather questionable. But he also asked the Tesla staff what this means and they said this referred to potential battery upgrades which aren't relevant to this model.
_____________

Oh and the government agency is still investigation so a lot of owners not very happy since they can't get their 4000€ .

So, IOW you can get the base Model below barrier price and therefore the ban to get the subsidies should be lifted and have not been justified at first!

This is another embarrassment for the German auto industry influencing the government authorities. They should apologize!
 

Spidy

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
1,365
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EU
and have not been justified at first!
Well, it proves that you can get it now, It does not really prove that it was really possible before. So far I still have just seen the report from one guy who tried it several times and then probably slipped through and got it.

For example one thing that has changed is that now they actually disable features, while the guy who got it a few weeks ago didn't have anything disabled.
 

Reciprocity

Active Member
Feb 27, 2017
4,160
11,390
Chicagoland
Well, it proves that you can get it now, It does not really prove that it was really possible before. So far I still have just seen the report from one guy who tried it several times and then probably slipped through and got it.

For example one thing that has changed is that now they actually disable features, while the guy who got it a few weeks ago didn't have anything disabled.

Why does it matter if the features are actually disabled as long as the price is lower? I thought the incentive was for less expensive vehicles so the issue was that you could never configure a cheap enough car. It would be silly of Tesla not to disable those features because everyone would just order the cheaper car and get all the features.
 
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Spidy

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
1,365
1,106
EU
It doesn't. But the fact that they didn't disable it in that base car in the beginning, but are doing it now makes me think it wasn't exactly intentional to sell it back then and it was rather an exception, so they did not bother with a special software for it.
Then it got media attention, suddenly more people ordered and Tesla could no longer easily turn them away as easily so they actually made a configuration that locked always all those features. And as you say the obviously don't want everyone to read on the forum that you can get all the features while paying 13k less.
 
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Spidy

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Feb 7, 2015
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thegruf

Active Member
Mar 24, 2015
2,308
2,106
indeterminate
I have seen some variants go on a very long lead time sometimes especially if they are "not popular", this can lead to a recommendation to buy a different spec, but only a cancellation if the customer doesn't wish to wait.

Seems like someone at Tesla wasn't being very astute. This could just be a case of a local sales employee not doing his job properly (further training required?) not a Tesla wide issue

The Germans made the rules, whether or not they are perceived to have an anti-Tesla bias is not relevant here (face it, even on US soil Tesla are still fighting battles against established industry).

Tesla need to make sure they play the game correctly to those rules.
The cost of a few base price models is insignificant in the scheme of things.
 

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