Auto-Pilot - I give up, it's downright lethal

[tomorrowman]

I've read many a thread regarding AP and it's failing etc, but I persevered for the last 2 years, and thought had a handle on it's peculiarities.

Main challenge was phantom braking, learnt to watch out for bridges, passing lorries, crest's in road's, sharpish turns with oncoming traffic, occasional sporadic slow down for no apparent reason and pressed accelerator promptly to avoid freaking out following traffic (no doubt a few 'why is that muppet braking' thoughts by the unfortunates following).

However what happened today means I give up.

Travelling down straight A-Road, no traffic in front of me, few cars behind (all keeping their distances i.e. no tailgating thank god).
Road on left has a car patiently waiting to join A-Road - Not to far forward to provoke 'phantom braking' in my view.
Next thing full emergency braking and the wind knocked out of me by seatbelt tightening - WTF !!!!

This is just bloody dangerous

 

[Envchem]

Hi mate. I had this now a few times and I learn to expect it and step the pedal ahead. Which software version you are at the moment? I have noticed for me at least it started happening after I updated at 2021.4.18.11. It feels like they change something on the radar sensitivity.

 

[tomorrowman]

Hi mate. I had this now a few times and I learn to expect it and step the pedal ahead. Which software version you are at the moment? I have noticed for me at least it started happening after I updated at 2021.4.18.11. It feels like they change something on the radar sensitivity.

2021.4.18.2

 

[Cardo]

I must say, I’ve only had the car since March and I’m of a similar mind. I only use AP/NoA on major dual carriageways and only use TACC on larger roads where I can predict what’s going to happen. I can’t go a single trip to work and back (around 55mi round trip) without some phantom braking event, usually where a side camera or sensor sees something that we’re already next to and decides to emergency brake. For that reason, I only use TACC when it’s pretty clear, and deactivate it when there’s any chance of anything upsetting it. Had one instance where a car coming the other way got a bit too close to the central line in the road and TACC decided that was too close and emergency braked. Fortunately, I took over pretty quickly and the person behind me wasn’t too close, otherwise that would’ve been an accident caused by TACC being utter rubbish.
I’m really hoping this is all to do with the difficulties they’ve had between vision and radar and the new FSD stack using only vision will solve these issues. I can but hope.

 

[tomorrowman]

All I can say is 'vision only' stack can't be worse. What really annoys me is it has been getting worse over the last 2 years - so much the much lauded OTA updates, don't think the idea was to regularly make a feature worse and automatically at that.

I'm beginning to miss my mercedes and it's drive pilot - It worked better than this cr*p and that was 6 years ago

 

[MrBadger]

However what happened today means I give up.

Travelling down straight A-Road, no traffic in front of me, few cars behind (all keeping their distances i.e. no tailgating thank god).
Road on left has a car patiently waiting to join A-Road - Not to far forward to provoke 'phantom braking' in my view.
Next thing full emergency braking and the wind knocked out of me by seatbelt tightening - WTF !!!!

This is just bloody dangerous

[update] At time of writing, the OP's comment gave no indication that they were using just the TACC subset of Autopilot. This post was made on the basis that when the term Autopilot is referenced, it refers to the full capabilities of Autopilot, ie TACC & Autosteer (in addition to the safety features). Hence references to Autosteer constraints from manual. Even though this post is not relevant to TACC, I will leave it be to highlight the use case constraints that do affect full Autopilot/Autosteer functionality.

This sounds to be precisely the type of roads where autopilot/autosteer should not be used - it is not limited by entry and exit ramps. If autopilot/autosteer is used in circumstances where it is not for use, then from time to time it is going to perform in an undefined way.

 

[Strategium]

2021.4.18.2

I am also on 2021.4.18.2 (I don't seem to be getting software updates any more, has been a long gap since last one) and as I commented to this group several times I have had exactly the same experience you just described. Last time was driving along on the A1 when approaching a car waiting to pull out of a petrol station induced a violent slam-on and near trouser soiling event. Fortunately nobody close behind.

As I commented before, this is a serious bug with recent versions of Autopilot and Tesla need to fix this as it is indeed potentially dangerous. That said, my recent experience with FSD on the motorway was really, really good. Hundreds of miles of comfortable driving with lane changing and dealing with merging traffic working really well. So I am not throwing the baby out with the bath water just yet.

The real frustration here for me is the much slower than advertised rate of progress with Tesla in getting reliable FSD features deployed as had been promised, especially outside of USA. Also, the unhelpful claims of wonderful progress with software features in Elon's widely reported tweets that never seem to be delivered. The new spate of FSD beta V9 videos on YouTube definitely show some impressive progress and tease the true potential of the system, but they also highlight so many remaining issues and bugs that it is hard to get any clear idea as to when we will get access here to a significant upgrade to a genuinely useful version of FSD for more than motorway driving that comes anywhere close to justifying the sticker price I paid in advance. Still, hope springs eternal...

 

[Adopado]

This is just bloody dangerous

That's why those kind roads are not intended to be used with Autopilot. Many of us do it from time to time ... in my own case just to test how things are going with the tech and invariably I am applying even more care and attention than when driving normally, if that's possible. I've pushed beyond the limits to see if it really would drive off the edge of the road in some circumstances ... (yes it does, yes and on an A road ) ... but I'm not going to claim a fail on Tesla's part because they already told me not to do it! Dual carriageways are, of course, a different matter.

 

[Zakalwe]

This is just bloody dangerous

Using ANY tool outside its operating environment will be dangerous. Put your experience down to user error.

 

[Dilly]

On NoA, I was in the outside lane on an empty d/c. a car merged from the off ramp partway Into the inside lane. I passed it and then the brakes came on.
I’d moved into the o/s lane well ahead to allow the other car to join.
the fact that NoA was available implies correct use of AP.
Braking after the event. Completely unacceptable. Luckily my foot is always covering the accelerator for just those occasions.
I’m on 4.18.11 and it’s worse than 4.18.3. Car too close to kerbs and too close to the white line on l/h bends

 

[tomorrowman]

This sounds to be precisely the type of roads where autopilot/autosteer should not be used - it is not limited by entry and exit ramps. If autopilot/autosteer is used in circumstances where it is not for use, then from time to time it is going to perform in an undefined way.

View attachment 686175View attachment 686176

Not too sure what quoting the Autosteer section of the manual does,

I'm fully aware of the limitations and recommended use of Autosteer. It's not autosteer I have a problem with, I assume it's traffic aware cruise control, which based on my reading of the manual is allowed for use on A Roads.

I fully understand 'it's beta', but my point remains. Based on my experience, It's got worse in the last two years to the point of being dangerous, in my considered opinion. So I will stop using it and my previous car 6 years ago could do a better job.

 

[Stranger Dings]

Not too sure what quoting the Autosteer section of the manual does,

I'm fully aware of the limitations and recommended use of Autosteer. It's not autosteer I have a problem with, I assume it's traffic aware cruise control, which based on my reading of the manual is allowed for use on A Roads.

I fully understand 'it's beta', but my point remains. Based on my experience, It's got worse in the last two years to the point of being dangerous, in my considered opinion. So I will stop using it and my previous car 6 years ago could do a better job.

I agree. I’ve lost all faith in it and avoid using it wherever possible. The only time I use it is in nose to tail traffic on motorways.

 

[Andy_T_73]

I find phantom braking on TACC as regular and eventful as on AP. Unfortunately there's no option to have a dumb cruise control that just holds your speed. Or have I missed that setting?

The other car in our house is an ICE Corsa and I use that dumb cruise more than I use TACC. As someone else commented it makes your more attentive as you are poised, ready to jump on the fast pedal in case the car throws a wobbly at a passing shadow. I find myself rarely using AP or TACC, it's just too stressful!

 

[Handydave]

The sad thing is that other cars do adaptive cruise control so well, for example my wife’s basic Golf. just works - keeps the speed you’ve set or follows the car in front at the distance you’ve set. And on all kinds of roads.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I've had that a couple of times although its not my biggest gripe, may not be stricktly AP but I don't trust the displayed speed limits one bit. I've had 40 in 60, 60 in 40, 70 in 50, 70 in 60 (single carriageway so could never be 70) etc. So even if I trusted TACC, I can't trust it to be doing the correct speed.

 

[JupiterMan]

I am also on 2021.4.18.2 (I don't seem to be getting software updates any more, has been a long gap since last one) and as I commented to this group several times I have had exactly the same experience you just described.

Road on left has a car patiently waiting to join A-Road - Not to far forward to provoke 'phantom braking' in my view.

I'm on 2021.4.18.11 and mine is now doing this too (not sure what version this changed, but quite recent). There is no reason for it, the other car is not on the road, is merely waiting at a junction, and autopilot for some reason sees this as a threat and slams on the brakes as you pass the junction.

I don't think this is "phantom braking" as such, to me that implies braking for unknown circumstances. Instead, here we can see exactly why the car is braking, but it simply should not be doing it.

Not sure if this is another right hand drive bug that has crept in unnoticed (otherwise this would surely be reported by others more here?), but it is dangerous and should be fixed asap.

 

[DenkiJidousha]

Also on 2021.4.18.2, and had this unwanted breaking twice now (in the last month or so), but thankfully not as dramatic as the thread starter.

My first example was on a dual carriageway section of the A90, another car waiting to join from a near perpendicular side road - had a clear side on view, wasn't obviously creeping forward but was close to my left hand lane.

Second example was similar, but I was less surprised, and probably pressed the accelerator quicker to abort the breaking.

Guess as per the manual I shouldn't be using auto steer on dual carriageways unless they are actually motorways with proper junctions... which would really cut down on the utility here in Scotland.

Note this has been flagged here for Tesla to look into as a possible RHD/UK specific issue, please go give that a thumbs up in case that helps Tesla prioritise things.

 

[M3noob]

I recently drove from Beds to Portsmouth in foul weather. Then Santander to Girona in full sun. One full-on phantom brake, one flinch on the trip. Running 4.18.11 with FSD (where's my damn update?!?!?) About 90pc NoA. Happy camper... paint fine, no panel gaps, only been back to the SC to replace a road hazarded tyre (it was on the way home). YMMV.

 

[Peter 224]

My experience:

Tesla's Autopilot is no more, or less, sensitive than Cruise Control on the previous Mercedes. Neither like anything on the left which suggests to the system "something" might happen. Mostly it is when a vehicle is waiting to turn right from a side turn on the left, but also when there is a slip lane for cars turning left. It is better than the Mercedes as I can set the distance between me and the car in front.
BUT I had a full blown emergency stop when it spotted a pedestrian crossing the road from right to left, it ignored the fact that there is a pedestrian refuge and assumed that the person would run in front of the car. Not fun.

Autosteer is pointless, other than driving slowly in traffic on a motorway.

I have no expectation that autonomous driving, other than on a motorway, will happen in my lifetime (Im 69)

 

[speedyranger74]

Recently I had a trip from Crawley to Liverpool and back... FSD active always (except roundabouts) and no issues... Happy!