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Automatic creep makes it impossible to come to a smooth stop

Do you want creep or no-creep?

  • No creep - the car doesn't move if the accelerator isn't pressed

    Votes: 45 60.0%
  • Creep - the car rolls forwards if the accelerator isn't pressed

    Votes: 30 40.0%

  • Total voters
    75

ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Mar 24, 2011
6,983
27,545
San Diego, CA
With your brake on and the car stopped, I don't think there is any creep anyways. When I look at my amp draw in my 1.5 when stopped it reads 1. When I let up on the brake and creep starts the amp draw is 3. I've got to believe that Tesla has already shut the creep off when you have the car stopped and your foot is on the brake. Not sure you can tell whether creep is on while coming to a stop, but I would have assumed so until this conversation started.

I agree that (on the roadster) the creep disappears while your foot is on the brake pedal. This can be seen by the power draw. So a smooth stop should be possible, and indeed as far as I know I always manage smooth stops in the roadster. Also, a few posts back, someone mentioned a clutch; there is no clutch in either car; when stopped, the motor is doing 0 rpm.
 

Doug_G

Lead Moderator
Apr 2, 2010
17,881
3,351
Ottawa, Canada
Yes, the Roadster turns off the motor when you're at a full stop with the brake engaged. Find a hill that's just steep enough to negate the creep, and you'll see there is more current draw when you're off the brake than when on.

But this proposal is different; it's suggesting that as soon as you push the brake the creep would be turned off, not just when the car is stopped. Lift off the brake and the creep will reactivate (as it does now). I do believe I would vote in favor of the proposal.
 

Sparrow

S105/ Roadster 189
Dec 14, 2010
755
242
Marietta, GA
Certainly can't be any creep when your car is doing regen braking so it would seem that at most this could only be a problem during very very low speed driving.
 

shark2k

Member
Nov 14, 2008
455
0
West Orange, NJ
Fine for considering only the stop; what about pulling way on an incline? I learned to drive in the UK where the dreaded "hill start" was part of the driving test but you got very quickly used to feeling the bite point (cars were all manual transmission back then). Is there no concern that without creep the car will roll backwards before you can accelerate away?

This is an easy fix as car manufacturer's have a solution for MT ICE's. Some cars have a Hill Assist feature which applies the brake for a second (or something like that) to prevent roll back for when you transfer from the brake to the gas and shift into gear. I believe even some AT ICE's have that, so I don't see why Tesla couldn't implement that in their cars.

As to creep, when I drove Slackjaw's Roadster last Saturday I'm pretty sure I was able to bring the car to a smooth stop a good portion of the time. If I didn't it was probably because I was trying to come to a stop a little quicker. Of course I haven't had nearly as much drive time as you guys. But as someone who drives a MT ICE, I would much prefer no creep and hill assist. I also don't see why (if Tesla did implement the creep for safety reasons) they coudn't add a sensor in the driver seat so that when it is not depressed for x amount of time the car could shut off or make some audible noise to let the driver know the car was on and/or it was turned off. Depending on how the car is set up I don't see why it wouldn't be able to send a text and/or e-mail to let the person know.

That's just my 2 cents and how I would prefer it for when I can eventually get a Tesla.

-Shark2k
 

howabout2

Member
Apr 17, 2010
142
0
Stuart, I am absolutely, without-a-doubt in agreement with you. The automatic creep must be either user-selectable via a preference or in any other fashion possible to override. Having driven a MINI E for two years, I am addicted to the smooth stop possible without creep and privately anguish every time I can't get my wife's automatic ICE to do the same.

Okay, I exaggerate a bit, but in seriousness, I do find driving an ICE annoying due to the creep and hate that little lurch when the brakes finally seize the vehicle. The Model S needs a preference to turn off the creep.
 

Stuart

Roadster#326, ModelS#1409
May 23, 2009
79
3
San Jose, CA
I honestly don't see the problem here. The creep is very minimal and if you brake you'll stop regardless if there is a creep or not?

Yes, the car will stop, but it takes more brake pressure to compete with the motor trying to drive it forward. Notice I said I want to be able to bring the car to a smooth stop. For people who've only every driven automatics and have never experienced a car that can stop without a lurch, I understand that it's hard to sympathize with what I'm asking for.
 

cinergi

Active Member
Sep 17, 2010
2,176
40
MA
There's a nuance here that I think some people are missing. I agree with Stuart.
Creep shuts off at about < 1 MPH and when that happens and you're on the brake, the car comes to a sudden jerky stop. It happens to me every time I casually come to a stop. It's poor experience and lacks refinement.
Creep doesn't need to be shut off when the car comes to a complete stop. It could be left on for a second after a complete stop, or just left on at all times. There's not that much power flowing so there's so little power consumed and heat generated, it can't possibly be an issue.
I wish I'd brought it up while I was talking to the engineers at the factory!
 

Stuart

Roadster#326, ModelS#1409
May 23, 2009
79
3
San Jose, CA
Fine for considering only the stop; what about pulling way on an incline? I learned to drive in the UK where the dreaded "hill start" was part of the driving test but you got very quickly used to feeling the bite point (cars were all manual transmission back then). Is there no concern that without creep the car will roll backwards before you can accelerate away?

That's what the hand brake is for! Americans call it the "emergency brake" and think I'm weird for using it every time I stop at traffic lights, but anyone who passed the "hill start" part of the UK driving test (especially in a manual car) should know how to use it. In a manual car, if you don't use the hand brake, then when you move your right foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator (remember your left foot is occupied pressing the clutch pedal) you're going to roll backwards on a hill if you're not using the hand brake. It's second nature to me, but I'm used to driving manual cars. For me, the skill of balancing the clutch, accelerator and hand brake so that you can move off smoothly (without rolling back at all, even on a steep hill) is just as important as the skill of being able to stop smoothly.
 

Stuart

Roadster#326, ModelS#1409
May 23, 2009
79
3
San Jose, CA
I agree that (on the roadster) the creep disappears while your foot is on the brake pedal. This can be seen by the power draw. So a smooth stop should be possible, and indeed as far as I know I always manage smooth stops in the roadster.

Here's an experiment you can try for yourself, in an empty parking lot when you can experiment safely without other drivers around.

At a low speed, say 10mph, put the drive into neutral and experiment with gentle braking until you can consistently bring the car to a smooth stop with no lurch. In the final few seconds before the car stops you'll need very light brake pressure to do it perfectly.

Now, once you're able to do this consistently, try it with the car in drive. You'll find that no matter how careful you are, the lurch is unavoidable. I suspect that once you've mastered the skill of the perfect smooth stop it will start to irritate you that you can't do it with the car in drive.
 

vfx

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2006
14,790
40
CA CA
I will second the comments that what we are talking about here is really subtle down at the 1 to 2 mph speeds.
It's like if you were coasting to as stop and two ugly guys suddenly appeared at the back of your car and started pushing just before you would have gently coasted to a full stop -now ruining the completion of your tripl.
Now imagine that same senario where you are slowly and perfectly evenly applying the brakes to a complete stop and just a fractional moment before you did, those two creeps appeared at the back of your car and started to push you along you ruining your perfect braking. Now you have to increase the amount of braking to stop their shananagins.

Creeps. Who needs em!
 

jkirkebo

Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU
Jun 13, 2010
961
12
Fredrikstad, Norway
That's what the hand brake is for! Americans call it the "emergency brake" and think I'm weird for using it every time I stop at traffic lights, but anyone who passed the "hill start" part of the UK driving test (especially in a manual car) should know how to use it. In a manual car, if you don't use the hand brake, then when you move your right foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator (remember your left foot is occupied pressing the clutch pedal) you're going to roll backwards on a hill if you're not using the hand brake.

No need to use the hand brake. I just depress the gas pedal slightly with my right foot, without letting go of the brake. At the same time I release the clutch, and when it begins to take I get off the brake and press harder on the accelerator. If the car has a good pedal layout, it's no problem operating two pedals with one foot.
 

smorgasbord

Active Member
Jun 3, 2011
3,194
5,060
SF Bay Area
At a low speed, say 10mph, put the drive into neutral and experiment with gentle braking until you can consistently bring the car to a smooth stop with no lurch. In the final few seconds before the car stops you'll need very light brake pressure to do it perfectly.

I disagree here, sorry.

First, "lurch" is not the appropriate term. The car doesn't lurch while stopping. It stops with maybe not the absolute possible smoothness. But, I can do very smooth stops even while engaged in Drive.

I've been playing around with this for a couple days now and can't see any real advantage to the proposal. I even went to the extreme of coasting to a stop without using the brakes at all and found that the car generally reaches the stop point with no more noticeable smoothness than I can do engaged in Drive and using the brake. That tells me that road conditions (slight uphill or downhill or small bumps) affect the ultimate smoothness of stopping no matter what the car itself is doing. If you're on a downhill gravity gives as much forward movement as creep, anyway. How often are you on perfectly flat roads here in Northern CA?

And then there's whether making a change won't introduce a small blip somewhere else. While trying Stuart's experiment, every time I went into Neutral I got a little transition bump, probably because of regen. With practice and concentration, I could find the sweet spot on the pedal that gives no regen, making going into neutral smoother. But, overall I found myself smoother at braking to a stop engaged in Drive than I was smoothly getting into Neutral. Presumably, the car's firmware would handle the transition to neutral better than I could manually, but then what happens on acceleration uptake?

Stuart, I'm not far from you. If you want, PM me and maybe you can show me in person your perfect stops. We can also try it in each other's Roadsters to see if there are variations (I've got a relatively late VIN v2.5).
 

vfx

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2006
14,790
40
CA CA
Point missed.

Using neutral or the emergency brake or two-foot braking is fine for all you fancy pants well heeled drivers but making an absolutely smooth stop is for the soccer mom or accountant or rolls royce fat-cat who knows nothing about driving nor do they care about how to trick a car to make it stop smoothly. This is why you make is right in the first place.
 

SByer

'08 #383
Oct 23, 2007
1,068
4
Cupertino, CA
I think what I'd like is for regen to take me all the way to as close to zero as it could get, perfectly smoothly, then start the creep within, say, 1/4 second? 1/2 second? That's plenty of timing window to get lightly on the brake, doesn't negate the creep safety issue, or the traffic issue (let off the brake == creep instantly). There has to be some threshold just above zero which is considered 'stop' since regen won't work all the way down to zero anyways.

I'm wondering how the stop-the-creep brake depressed detection is done, and if there might not be some variation between cars on that. I find the lightest brake pedal pressure stops creep for me - I get quite smooth stops nearly all of the time. Certainly better than the 911 did (manual transmission, of course - a 911 with an automatic seems quite, well, wrong to me).
 

Stuart

Roadster#326, ModelS#1409
May 23, 2009
79
3
San Jose, CA
I disagree here, sorry.

First, "lurch" is not the appropriate term. The car doesn't lurch while stopping. It stops with maybe not the absolute possible smoothness. But, I can do very smooth stops even while engaged in Drive.

...

Stuart, I'm not far from you. If you want, PM me and maybe you can show me in person your perfect stops. We can also try it in each other's Roadsters to see if there are variations (I've got a relatively late VIN v2.5).

Thanks for the offer. I'll contact you directly. It's quite possible that your Roadster handles differently to my 2008 model.
 

djp

Model 3 Performance
Aug 28, 2011
1,120
60
Toronto, Canada
Stuart - I know exactly what you mean. The trick to coming to a smooth stop is to let up on the brake so the car doesn't jerk as it comes to a complete stop. With the Roadster the creep kicks in as you let up on the brake, resulting in the car pulling forward rather than coasting to a smooth stop. I can consistently come to a smooth stop in neutral, but not in drive. It's subtle but noticeable, and I agree creep should be disengaged until your foot is fully off the brake.

Personally I'd like to see the creep removed completely, or at least made optional. I've always owned manual or SMG cars - creep feels like a cheap automatic.
 

slcasner

Active Member
Feb 20, 2011
1,192
797
Sunnyvale, CA
Stuart - I've been annoyed by this, too. I wouldn't call it a lurch, though. To me it feels more like a brake grab, like the transition from dynamic to static friction. I have long practiced what I have heard described as a "chauffeur" stop, where the driver will ease up on the brake as the car comes to a stop to smoothly reduce the deceleration rather than having the brakes grab as the car comes to a stop, causing all the passengers' heads to bob a little. With practice, even a fairly abrupt stop can be smooth. In my manual Audi A4, this works fine. I rarely drive an AT ICE, so I have not paid as close attention to that case. But I have never been able to get the Roadster to stop smoothly. I assumed it was just a difference in the type of brakes or in the weight of the vehicle, but now I see that if the force imposed by the motor abruptly drops, it would cause this effect.

hcsharp - There is no clutch, only gears. The motor is absolutely stopped when the car is stopped.

Oh, and I should add that I'm a complete hater of the creep anyway. When I took part in the first customer drives of the VP #10 Roadster, it had no creep and I was overjoyed. That was changed in production, though.
 
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