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Automatic creep makes it impossible to come to a smooth stop

Do you want creep or no-creep?

  • No creep - the car doesn't move if the accelerator isn't pressed

    Votes: 45 60.0%
  • Creep - the car rolls forwards if the accelerator isn't pressed

    Votes: 30 40.0%

  • Total voters
    75

neroden

Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan
Apr 25, 2011
14,676
62,627
Ithaca, NY, USA
As someone transitioning from a manual transmission, anything which gets rid of the creep effect seems good to me. I read that one claim was that it was too easy to get out of the car while it was "in gear" if it stopped dead. Well, in a manual, when you stop, the car stalls out and *stays* stopped. I guess in a Tesla there's no clutch to signify "I'm just at a red light, I'm not stopped for good", but having your foot on the brake pedal should sure signal "stop".
 

speedy99

Model 3 (2018, LR)
Aug 15, 2011
57
5
Santa Cruz, California
Been playing with this for a week. Unfortunately, been in lots of traffic, and not enough open roads. I can stop just fine. Biggest issue for me is properly judging the regen, which tends to stop the car slightly faster than most people brake. I think of the tesla as an automatic, so I guess I am used to how it works. I've driven manuals all my life, but also had Toyota hybrids in the family fleet, so I am used to the regen-brake-creep transition. I've also noticed the Tesla creep is really gentle, and helpful when I misjudge the regenstopping distance. On a slight uphill I roll backwards (like a manual), where my auto cars will hold better. I have no issues with how the current 2.5 (#1415) is working, and would not change a thing!
 

zack

Member
Nov 15, 2010
946
2
Minneapolis, MN
I agree. My #1204 seems very natural for me now, after 6 months. I wouldn't change the creep. I often go on longer trips so the regen is off for the first 20 miles or so, and that's the only thing that bugs me about the transmission, however I've become so tuned into the different modes of the car that I think about it as I'm driving off from the charger and consciously brake harder and faster at first.
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,082
45,788
Central New York
I often go on longer trips so the regen is off for the first 20 miles or so, and that's the only thing that bugs me about the transmission....
Just to be clear, it's not the transmission, it's the software limiting regen to protect the pack from over voltage.
 

Jaff

Active Member
Aug 15, 2010
3,135
318
Grimsby, Canada
Agree totally speedy! ...the creep doesn't bother me a bit.

Been playing with this for a week. Unfortunately, been in lots of traffic, and not enough open roads. I can stop just fine. Biggest issue for me is properly judging the regen, which tends to stop the car slightly faster than most people brake. I think of the tesla as an automatic, so I guess I am used to how it works. I've driven manuals all my life, but also had Toyota hybrids in the family fleet, so I am used to the regen-brake-creep transition. I've also noticed the Tesla creep is really gentle, and helpful when I misjudge the regenstopping distance. On a slight uphill I roll backwards (like a manual), where my auto cars will hold better. I have no issues with how the current 2.5 (#1415) is working, and would not change a thing!
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,082
45,788
Central New York
Not in the Tesla, and most EV's, which simply have a single speed gear reduction unit, not a true transmission. The software is in the motor controller.
 

mpt

Electrics are back
Oct 15, 2008
1,746
197
Warren, New Jersey, United States
There are a lot of threads discussing the creep; just so this one doesn't get missed by me :)

I hate creep; to me it represents a programing bug, a flaw that slipped through QA, a bad user experience. What's next after simulated automatic transmission creep? Simulated lurches through gear changes? Vibration through the controls? No torque at low rpm? What? A little pot that we fill up with old oil that the car then throws on the garage floor?

Even modern automatics have dispensed with the creep so this is actually emulating an old crappy fluid transmission.

I drive a MINI E and those guys did a better job; no creep just works better. All I'd ask for is a tiny, tiny, tiny bias on the motor to ensure that the slack is taken out of the transmission when you're waiting at the lights.

No Creep!

I'm going to start a political party like these guys Economic money destruction Switzerland 2.1 billion | Anti Powerpoint Party
 

Doug_G

Lead Moderator
Apr 2, 2010
17,881
3,351
Ottawa, Canada
Even modern automatics have dispensed with the creep so this is actually emulating an old crappy fluid transmission.

Interesting... my Infiniti G37 has a dual clutch 7-speed transmission. It does creep, and I've long wondered how it does that, but never looked it up. Turns out there are "wet clutch" and "dry clutch" DCTs.

HowStuffWorks

Obviously the dry clutch version cannot creep, and that appears to be the more advanced design. So yes, creep is even going away with the automatics.
 

TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,824
8,842
I think this is the closest we ever got to an "official" explanation:
Creep was designed as a safety feature. Early prototypes did not have the creep and it was really easy to walk away from the car while still on and "in gear."

Worst case scenario goes something like this:

I jump in my Roadster to go down to the farmer's market to pick up ingredients for a nice summer lunch. As I am about to back out of the garage (car in reverse) I realize that I left my wallet on the counter. I jump out of the car to grab it. It will only take a second. The phone rings. Mom wants to talk about dinner plans tomorrow.

While I am talking to mom the kids go out to the garage to vroom, vroom the Tesla. One kid walks behind the car while the other jumps in to pretend to be Speed Racer Daddy. The rest is left to imagination, but it could end poorly for both kids and the car.

With creep you never get to this point. As you jump out of the car to get your wallet the car starts to roll back. Oh yeah, I left it in Reverse. You should switch the car off with this warning and take the keys with you, but even if you don't the car is now much safer than it would have been otherwise. To switch into gear requires depression of the brake pedal while the "shift" is requested. The odds of your kid being big enough to push the brake and hit the correct button, but also not realize the risk, is decreased. And they would have to hit the correct button.

There is no comparison here to an automatic transmission car, and the common conclusion that it was done to make people comfortable with the shift from ICE to electric couldn't be further from the truth, at least in Tesla's case. Tesla's transmission can be compared to a manual with a clutch stuck in the engaged position (though there isn't a clutch in reality). The drive wheels never disconnect from the motor. Shifting gears is really just telling the drive electronics how to supply power. Neutral means no power, not a disconnecting of motor from gears and wheels. The innards and functionality of most automatic transmissions is very different.

Zak
 

Doug_G

Lead Moderator
Apr 2, 2010
17,881
3,351
Ottawa, Canada
Easy solution to this. If you open the door with the car in gear, the VDS emits that annoying BRAP BRAP BRAP sound, with a warning message. That always gets my attention.

The firmware could even force it into Park as long as the car was not moving.
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,082
45,788
Central New York
Easy solution to this. If you open the door with the car in gear, the VDS emits that annoying BRAP BRAP BRAP sound, with a warning message. That always gets my attention.

The firmware could even force it into Park as long as the car was not moving.
Yes, easy enough to shut the car off when the door opens, there is already a switch to turn on the dome lights. I don't buy the safety issue, there are better ways around it.
 

vfx

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2006
14,790
40
CA CA
I'm a NO CREEP advocate from the beginning. Drives me crazy.

And the this new observation that shows that if you were to be traveling at 40 MPH and let off the velocity pedal the slowing graph would show a linear line heading to zero only to suddenly flatten out at a horizontal line at 3 MPH. When braking you are presented with that abrupt change from deceleration to constant speed. How could anyone possibly get a smooth stop with that kind of graph? A luxury car like the Model S needs to have this eliminated as he general public will not be as driving savvy and not even know why the car is not smooth stopping or even that there is something wrong.

I'm interested in the "compromise" of creep is off as long as the brake (lights) is on. That might be ok. Would have to drive it.
 

fraccy

Member
Aug 1, 2011
68
2
Reading, UK
Have been playing with this in my 2011 roadster, and can't say I'm fussed by it. I like the creep in some situations, in others it can be a bit annoying, and no I can't stop completely smoothly... but very nearly :) I think its the off/on nature of it that seems unnecessarily clunky given the fine level of control the technology offers. It seems to me it being finessed in concert with action on the brake as others have described would be the best solution. Either way, there are far more important things I wish they'd work on if they ever change anything in future cough3phasecoughcoughcough.
 

mpt

Electrics are back
Oct 15, 2008
1,746
197
Warren, New Jersey, United States
The firmware could even force it into Park as long as the car was not moving.

Now that's safety and a perfect user experience!

You might argue that you could find yourself needing to move backwards with the door open - perhaps you need to see something, this is fine, you just have to open the door and then re-engage reverse.
 

mpt

Electrics are back
Oct 15, 2008
1,746
197
Warren, New Jersey, United States
...it that seems unnecessarily clunky given the fine level of control the technology offers.

Absolutely, with the MINI E, you can pull into the garage then move forwards ½", maybe ¾" as needed. This is not possible in the Tesla due to the creep bug (New name).

I wonder if they can't eliminate it as the creep represents the smallest unit of forward power/drive. Maybe they can't do the same as the MINI E, maybe their software guys can't figure it out.
 

Stuart

Roadster#326, ModelS#1409
May 23, 2009
79
3
San Jose, CA
I can stop just fine.

I've acknowledged before that different people have different preferences here. Some people are bothered by the way the Roadster stops, and others think it's just fine.

I've also acknowledged that "drive feel" issues like this can be hard to convey in words, but the couple of times I've demonstrated this in person, people do get it. I put the Roadster in neutral and (hopefully) bring it to a perfectly smooth stop, and for some people that's literally the first time in their life that they've ever experienced a car doing that. They're so used to every car they've ever been in always making that final little kick back as it stops, that they never even knew it was possible for a car to not do that.

I've learned something new from this discussion thread: the term "Chauffeur's Stop". I'd never heard that term before. It's nice to know this skill has a name.

Paul Scheele wrote a wrote a good description:

The type of stop he's describing is called a chauffeur's stop. It is accomplished by applying hard brake pedal force at the beginning of braking, when the relative wheel motion to vehicle is greatest, and most braking effect can be created on dry pavement, with a subsequent gradual lessening of pedal force until just before the moment when the vehicle stops, at which instant, the brake pedal is released completely. The driver is trading on the difference between sliding friction, which is the usual kind of friction available in the brakes of a car in motion, and static friction, which is what holds a car in place on a grade when the brakes are applied. (You may have heard these terms in a basic physics course describing types of friction and Newtonian forces.) The transition between sliding and static friction is what you are trying to avoid in the last instant of stopping. The advantages are that 1) you avoid the coffee spilling small "jerk" that will inevitably happen if you keep brake pressure through to full stop, and 2) you minimize the considerable brake wear that occurs when particles of your pads are yanked by the sudden occurrence of static friction at the end of every stop you are now doing.

Also Alan Sidorov:

Braking skills are not a new subject in this column. Footwork in general is one of the things we work on the most in racing and advanced driving schools. Think of proper braking like a graph that spikes relatively early then trails off, versus one that starts low and climbs to a peak. The result should be a chauffeur stop, with brake pressure gradually reducing so there is no final lurch to spill the passenger's double espresso. Good truck drivers know this and demonstrate it, though now and then someone in a car will decide to cut in front of them before a red light, spoiling the whole effort.
 

Robert.Boston

Model S VIN P01536
Oct 7, 2011
7,844
38
Portland, Maine, USA
Here's a snippet from the Tesla 10-K posted yesterday that discusses "creep":
Control Software
The performance and safety systems of our vehicles and their battery packs require sophisticated control software. There are numerous processors in our vehicles to control these functions, and we write custom firmware for many of these processors. The flow of electricity between the battery pack and the motor must be tightly controlled in order to deliver the performance and behavior expected in the vehicle. For example, software algorithms enable the vehicle to mimic the “creep” feeling which drivers expect from an internal combustion engine vehicle without having to apply pressure on the accelerator. Similar algorithms control traction, vehicle stability and the sustained acceleration and regenerative braking of the vehicle. Drivers use the information systems in our vehicles to optimize performance and charging modes and times. Software also is used extensively to monitor the charge state of each of the cells of the battery pack and to manage all of its safety systems. In addition to the vehicle control software, we are also developing software for the infotainment system of Model S.
Given that "creep" is strictly software-driven, I wonder if it will be possible to disable "creep" on our cars? Shouldn't be any harder than the "variable regen" that's been discussed.
 

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