Autonomous Car Progress

[WannabeOwner]

Even now AP2 lacks features that AP1 had, such as the ability to read road signs and identify different types of vehicle

I appreciate the fact that AP1 can read speed signs (there are NO other road signs that it can read), because in UK we have variable speed limits on highways (camera enforced), so that feature is valuable to me. But it isn't bug free - we have speed signs saying "In 1 mile" and then the (50) part of the sign, and AP1 immediately slows down ... and when it comes out of a restricted zone, if there is just an unrestricted sign (rather than a higher limit [which is rare]) the speed-limit icon disappears from the dashboard instantly but nothing else happens for several hundred yards (and I have to take over manually if there is traffic behind me otherwise I become slow-moving a liability). A GPS-based database wouldn't have that problem of course ...

The dashboard picture of other vehicles I think is a red herring. Clearly AP2 knows the vehicles are there, otherwise it would bump into them! so not putting any programmer effort into showing that [to the driver] is I think a better use of that resource. Maybe TEsla have decided that it serves no useful purpose and are not intending to build that into AP2 (speculation on my part, of course; but with FSD it would not be of any interest ...)

No doubt other folk have different priorities.

AP2 is far far better at the bits which AP1 is not brilliant at, navigating tight bends on highway ramps, and over-crest (where AP1 still hunts left-and-right instead of assuming that the road is straight until it can determine otherwise). I have tried AP1 on non-highway and whilst I haven't had any scary moments I'm not sufficiently confident of it (on UK roads) to use it as the "norm", and it certainly only works if there is a white line on the outside [verge side} of the lane, a grass verge alone is not recognised well by AP1, whereas friends tell me that they get a much more confident feel from AP2 including when the lane markings are "poor"

So apart from the speed sign reading, I think AP2 is better in many areas, significantly so in some of them.

 

[banned-66611]

Tesla owners are Beta tester by choice, no one is forced to order EAP.

Can you buy a Tesla without any AP hardware? Can you disable the AP hardware so that it doesn't consume any energy? Can you disable the firmware shadow driving and sending data back to Tesla for their neural net training?

 

[banned-66611]

The dashboard picture of other vehicles I think is a red herring. Clearly AP2 knows the vehicles are there, otherwise it would bump into them! so not putting any programmer effort into showing that [to the driver] is I think a better use of that resource. Maybe TEsla have decided that it serves no useful purpose and are not intending to build that into AP2 (speculation on my part, of course; but with FSD it would not be of any interest ...)

It's essential for FSD. It needs to know the vehicle type in order to predict what it might do. For example, motorbikes sometimes drive down the middle of two lanes. It's going to need to see cyclists too and give them adequate room.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Can you buy a Tesla without any AP hardware? Can you disable the AP hardware so that it doesn't consume any energy? Can you disable the firmware shadow driving and sending data back to Tesla for their neural net training?

Yes, there are hundreds of Teslas for sale which don't have any autopilot hardware in them. Since they don't have AP hardware, they wouldn't consume any extra energy or require you to disable and "shadow driving" features.

 

[mongo]

Can you buy a Tesla without any AP hardware? Can you disable the AP hardware so that it doesn't consume any energy? Can you disable the firmware shadow driving and sending data back to Tesla for their neural net training?

You dropped the second half of my response:

Nor are they force to purchase at the current price point.

The price of the car includes the HW. On a Tesla, the AP HW is also the FCW and AEB HW... if you don't like having a car with HW you don't use, you could choose to not buy a Tesla, GM (on-star), Ford (Sync), or many other (Sirrus/XM).

You can also disable the vehicle network connection (disconnect antenna).

 

[WannabeOwner]

It's essential for FSD. It needs to know the vehicle type in order to predict what it might do

I think its essential for AP on its own ... but knowing the vehicle and then showing it on the dash, are two separate things.

Can you disable the firmware shadow driving and sending data back to Tesla for their neural net training?

I think that's overrated. Its been shown that "phone home" is not happening in most instances. However, I had to Opt In for data sharing, I can;t remember the details now, hopefully someone else can. Maybe that was in part about sharing the data that is of concern to you.

But your worry about the power consumption is misplaced. The car will use more in parasitic loses just standing still than the AP hardware is going to use when you are driving. In that regard Tesla (and other BEVs too) are not very eco.

But its a bit like having your TV on standby ... if you physically turn the TV off you can't just press "Start" on the remote. Same for a Tesla

 

[banned-66611]

Tesla say that AP2 cars have the computer system running, processing the camera and other data. It calculates driving inputs and compares them to what the driver does. It sends "interesting" events to Tesla. They use the data to train their system.

You paid for the extra cameras that are not needed for even AP functions, let alone basic stuff like collision avoidance. The system is estimated to use maybe 250-300W peak, but it's not known what it uses in shadow mode.

 

[mongo]

Tesla say that AP2 cars have the computer system running, processing the camera and other data. It calculates driving inputs and compares them to what the driver does. It sends "interesting" events to Tesla. They use the data to train their system.

You paid for the extra cameras that are not needed for even AP functions, let alone basic stuff like collision avoidance. The system is estimated to use maybe 250-300W peak, but it's not known what it uses in shadow mode.

Price point has nothing to do with actual cost. Would you feel better if Tesla removed the cameras and left the price the same (or raised it)?
Cameras will be used in future EAP/ FS software.

 

[J1mbo]

The AP hardware also provides safety features, like AEB.

You could buy another brand of car, but most also have hardware providing safety features like AEB.

If you want a non-AP Tesla then there are about 50,000 out there. I would hazard a guess that they are less efficient than a new AP 2.5 car, but whatever floats your boat...

 

[banned-66611]

Sure, they need the radar for the mandatory AEB (mandatory in Europe at least). But they don't need the side and rear cameras, or the ultrasonics, or the high end computer to process it all.

It's an interesting idea, but you can't escape the fact that the base Model 3 is more expensive than other comparable cars and has significantly lower range. It's not as efficient as the new Kona either. That cost must be coming from somewhere, that power must be going somewhere.

Maybe it's not the AP, maybe it's something else.

 

[mongo]

Sure, they need the radar for the mandatory AEB (mandatory in Europe at least). But they don't need the side and rear cameras, or the ultrasonics, or the high end computer to process it all.

It's an interesting idea, but you can't escape the fact that the base Model 3 is more expensive than other comparable cars and has significantly lower range. It's not as efficient as the new Kona either. That cost must be coming from somewhere, that power must be going somewhere.

Maybe it's not the AP, maybe it's something else.

Significantly lower range? Than what?
SR Tesla is projected to get 220 miles, and given the LR real world numbers vs 310 spec, may be better than that.
Real World Range — 3LR vs. S100D?

And you are saying that it is less efficient than the Kona, which isn't sold yet and is projected to get 150 miles of range in the base model? Hyundai Kona Electric Reviews | Hyundai Kona Electric Price, Photos, and Specs | Car and Driver

With its stand-out styling and long electric-only driving range, the Kona Electric is poised for success. A 133-hp electric motor drives the front wheels and is powered by a 39.2-kWh battery pack, which should offer around 150 miles of driving range. With the larger 64.0-kWh battery, power and range increase to 201 horses and about 250 miles, respectively. Details about the Kona Electric’s available features and pricing are still unclear, but it’s expected to go on sale before the end of 2018

That works out to 260 Wh/mile estimated vs the LR 3 real world efficiency of 220 to 260 Wh/mile. SR will be even better due to less mass.
What’s the average Wh/mi you are getting

 

[daktari]

It didn't take a year. The first AP2 cars were delivered around November 2016. I was among the first to get AP2 in December 2016. While there wasn't any autopilot or TACC functionality in December 2016, by April 2017 we had highway-usable autopilot functionality. In May 2017, it was up to 90 mph and worked pretty well.

Well I would say the May 17 version was pretty sensitive for crests and undulations. It was 2018.6 and 10.4 that really made a difference.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Well I would say the May 17 version was pretty sensitive for crests and undulations. It was 2018.6 and 10.4 that really made a difference.

Yes, but I was responding to the message that said "nothing working for a year or more". Things did get a lot better with 2018.10.4 but autopilot was already working by May 2017, especially on long, straight highways across Kansas and Nebraska...where there are few hills or curves.

 

[daktari]

Yes, but I was responding to the message that said "nothing working for a year or more". Things did get a lot better wither 2018.10.4 but autopilot was already working by May 2017, especially on long, straight highways across Kansas and Nebraska...where there are few hills or curves.

I understand. And in May the ping-pong was gone also.

 

[banned-66611]

Significantly lower range? Than what?
SR Tesla is projected to get 220 miles, and given the LR real world numbers vs 310 spec, may be better than that.
Real World Range — 3LR vs. S100D?

And you are saying that it is less efficient than the Kona, which isn't sold yet and is projected to get 150 miles of range in the base model? Hyundai Kona Electric Reviews | Hyundai Kona Electric Price, Photos, and Specs | Car and Driver


That works out to 260 Wh/mile estimated vs the LR 3 real world efficiency of 220 to 260 Wh/mile. SR will be even better due to less mass.
What’s the average Wh/mi you are getting

Try comparing like-for-like. The base M3 SR is comparable on price to the 64kWh Kona. Actually the closest comparison is M3 SR + AP to Kona 64kWh Ultimate, but either way the conclusion is the same.

Bjorn did nearly 320 miles on a single charge in a Kona. Not hypermiling, just normal highway efficient driving. So that's 200Wh/mile real world. Close to what the WLTP range is, and WLTP seems to be fairly accurate. Kona owners in Korea have been seeing similar, and deliveries in Europe start next month.

But the thing is the Kona has 18-20kWh more energy available to it. That's 35-40% more energy than the M3 SR.

So even if the M3 SR had better efficiency, it would need to be 40% better to match the Kona on range. That seems extremely unlikely.

But that's okay. The M3 is a sporty hatchback, low and wide. The Kona is a taller, subcompact SUV shape. So you get to pick based on your needs. Range or 0-60 times? Supercharger network or taller, more comfortable size?

 

[banned-66611]

Been checking the Kona manual. The camera system can not only read speed signs, it can read other types of sign too like "no overtaking" and "end of limitation". It can also recognize variable speed limits and compare to the current state (e.g. wipers on = rain so use the wet limit).

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

There it is:

Tesla’s new Autopilot hardware upgrade will be free for owners with the $3,000 to $5,000 ‘Full Self-Driving’ package

 

[banned-66611]

There it is:

Tesla’s new Autopilot hardware upgrade will be free for owners with the $3,000 to $5,000 ‘Full Self-Driving’ package

Strange definition of "free" if you have to pay $5000 for it...

The assumption was always that the high price for enabling what was supposed to be a software feature was set to cover any necessary hardware upgrades, right?

 

[mongo]

Strange definition of "free" if you have to pay $5000 for it...

The assumption was always that the high price for enabling what was supposed to be a software feature was set to cover any necessary hardware upgrades, right?

The 3k-5k price was for the FSD SW and any HW upgrade needed. There is no price delta to previous purchasers for the additional HW, thus free HW (just like originally specified).

 

[banned-66611]

The 3k-5k price was for the FSD SW and any HW upgrade needed. There is no price delta to previous purchasers for the additional HW, thus free HW (just like originally specified).

That's what I mean, it's """""FREE""""" in that it it's obviously included in the $5000 price tag.