Autonomous Car Progress

[powertoold]

Did you guys know "fully autonomous" can include human remote assistance (or even someone sitting in the driver's seat with an iPad)? Why must we use such deceptive language? It's such a shame.

For all we know, these so-called fully autonomous drives have someone watching the live feed from the backseat and fixing all the pathing.

 

[Doggydogworld]

Did you guys know "fully autonomous" can include human remote assistance (or even someone sitting in the driver's seat with an iPad)? Why must we use such deceptive language? It's such a shame.

Everyone should use unambiguous terms like "Full Self Driving" which clearly means "grip the wheel and watch it like a hawk"

Hmmm, what happened in the span of 18 months when Elon went from "fully autonomous is a bridge too far" to "a solved problem" that "isn't all that difficult to achieve?"

IMHO it was more a case of Dunning-Kruger on steroids than fund-raising hype.

 

[powertoold]

Everyone should use unambiguous terms like "Full Self Driving" which clearly means "grip the wheel and watch it like a hawk"

Tesla is the only company where you can actually see the "full" self-driving stack with no remote help or smokey mirrors.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Did you guys know "fully autonomous" can include human remote assistance (or even someone sitting in the driver's seat with an iPad)? Why must we use such deceptive language? It's such a shame.

For all we know, these so-called fully autonomous drives have someone watching the live feed from the backseat and fixing all the pathing.

This is why the SAE actually doesn't use the term autonomous. None of these vehicles are truly autonomous.
In the end though all that matters is whether or not they require a driver. I would say someone controlling it full time with an iPad is a driver...

7.1.1 Autonomous
This term has been used for a long time in the robotics and artificial intelligence research communities to signify systems that have the ability and authority to make decisions independently and self-sufficiently. Over time, this usage was casually broadened to not only encompass decision making, but to represent the entire system functionality, thereby becoming synonymous with automated. This usage obscures the question of whether a so-called “autonomous vehicle” depends on communication and/or cooperation with outside entities for important functionality (such as data acquisition and collection). Some driving automation systems may indeed be autonomous if they perform all of their functions independently and self- sufficiently, but if they depend on communication and/or cooperation with outside entities, they should be considered cooperative rather than autonomous. Some vernacular usages associate autonomous specifically with full driving automation (level 5), while other usages apply it to all levels of driving automation, and some state legislation has defined it to correspond approximately to any ADS at or above level 3 (or to any vehicle equipped with such an ADS).
Additionally, in jurisprudence, autonomy refers to the capacity for self-governance. In this sense, also, “autonomous” is a misnomer as applied to automated driving technology, because even the most advanced ADSs are not “self-governing.” Rather, ADSs operate based on algorithms and otherwise obey the commands of users.
For these reasons, this document does not use the popular term “autonomous” to describe driving automation.

 

[diplomat33]

Tesla is the only company where you can actually see the "full" self-driving stack with no remote help or smokey mirrors.

Sure. Just be prepared to take over at a moments notice because the FSD stack may decide to dive for pedestrians, drive into a road closed sign, drive the wrong way, drive in the wrong lane, or drive into incoming traffic, almost hit drivers getting out of their parked car, make illegal maneuvers etc...

 

[eli_]

Sure. Just be prepared to take over at a moments notice because the FSD stack may decide to dive for pedestrians, drive into a road closed sign, drive the wrong way, drive in the wrong lane, or drive into incoming traffic, almost hit drivers getting out of their parked car, make illegal maneuvers etc...

It's like Hotz says, Tesla's slogan is "look at this crazy feature".

Speaking of which, Comma AI announced three new features coming soon. "Navigate on OpenPilot", red lights and stop signs, and slowing down for curves:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1440412629357322253

 

[powertoold]

I would say someone controlling it full time with an iPad is a driver...

Even if it's not full time, I wouldn't say it's fully autonomous.

A fully autonomous feature should be making all decisions by itself, all the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the iPad driver is still level 4.

 

[daniel]

8 years ago, Elon: “We should be able to do 90 per cent of miles driven within three years,” he said. Mr Musk would not reveal further details of Tesla’s autonomy project, but said it was “internal development” rather than technology being supplied by another company. “It’s not speculation,” he said. “My opinion is it’s a bridge too far to go to fully autonomous cars,” Mr Musk said in an interview with the Financial Times. “It’s incredibly hard to get the last few per cent.”


6 years ago, Elon: Elon Musk, chief executive of Tesla Motors Inc. and Space Exploration Technologies Inc., says autonomous driving isn’t all that difficult to achieve.“ “I view it as a solved problem. We know exactly what to do and we will be there in a few years,” Mr. Musk said at the Nvidia Corp. graphical processor conference in San Jose, Calif., on Tuesday.


Hmmm, what happened in the span of 18 months when Elon went from "fully autonomous is a bridge too far" to "a solved problem" that "isn't all that difficult to achieve?"

Elon's mouth does not appear to be connected to his brain.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Even if it's not full time, I wouldn't say it's fully autonomous.

A fully autonomous feature should be making all decisions by itself, all the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the iPad driver is still level 4.

I don't see why controlling the vehicle with an iPad is any different than controlling it with a steering wheel (except for being way more dangerous!) so it would not be Level 4.
I'm not sure why you're so worried about the "purity" of driverless vehicles. I would characterize Zoox, Waymo, and Cruise as Level 4 but I could see the argument that they're actually Level 3 with a remote driver (which allows one driver for many vehicles). I think they claim that the remote assistant doesn't actually drive the vehicle but merely helps resolve pathing when the vehicle gets stuck.

 

[powertoold]

it would not be Level 4

Ya, my impression is that it is level 4 (as long as the iPad driver doesn't actually touch the wheel or pedals and is only there to plan out the path and perhaps presses a button for the car to proceed in certain situations like to pass a car / proceed at stops and lights), but I could be wrong. It'd be great if someone can post the actual part in the definition that contradicts this.

 

[Bladerskb]

Details on Mobileye Drive Sensors and Hardware suite & L4 Robotaxi car plus ride along.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Ya, my impression is that it is level 4 (as long as the iPad driver doesn't actually touch the wheel or pedals and is only there to plan out the path and perhaps presses a button for the car to proceed in certain situations like to pass a car / proceed at stops and lights), but I could be wrong. It'd be great if someone can post the actual part in the definition that contradicts this.

It's not Level 4 if the person is performing Object Event Detection and Response which seems to be what you're describing. The type of controls a vehicle has has nothing to do with SAE levels.
Is this a hypothetical or is there some company actually doing this? It sounds ridiculous.

 

[diplomat33]

Did you guys know "fully autonomous" can include human remote assistance (or even someone sitting in the driver's seat with an iPad)? Why must we use such deceptive language? It's such a shame.

For all we know, these so-called fully autonomous drives have someone watching the live feed from the backseat and fixing all the pathing.

I don't see why controlling the vehicle with an iPad is any different than controlling it with a steering wheel (except for being way more dangerous!) so it would not be Level 4.
I'm not sure why you're so worried about the "purity" of driverless vehicles. I would characterize Zoox, Waymo, and Cruise as Level 4 but I could see the argument that they're actually Level 3 with a remote driver (which allows one driver for many vehicles). I think they claim that the remote assistant doesn't actually drive the vehicle but merely helps resolve pathing when the vehicle gets stuck.

Ya, my impression is that it is level 4 (as long as the iPad driver doesn't actually touch the wheel or pedals and is only there to plan out the path and perhaps presses a button for the car to proceed in certain situations like to pass a car / proceed at stops and lights), but I could be wrong. It'd be great if someone can post the actual part in the definition that contradicts this.

According to Waymo, Cruise, etc, remote assistance does not control the cars. They simply label things or draw suggested paths to give the car help. The cars make all the driving decisions. So the cars are still fully autonomous (L4) since, even with remote assistance, they still made all the driving decisions and did all the driving on their own. Remote assistance is like a passenger in your car giving you suggestions but you were still driving the car the whole time. You wouldn't say "I was not really driving because my passenger made a driving suggestion". Same with L4 robotaxis and remote assistance.

Last year, Zoox posted this informative video on how their remote assistance works.

It is very rare, less than 1% according to Zoox. @powertoold so no they are not constantly fixing pathing in secret.

@powertoold is making a big deal about nothing. Remote assistance is not a big deal. You have to sometimes give the autonomous car a little hint because it can get stuck. That is inevitable with FSD that is not perfect yet. And if you don't have a safety driver, how else are you going to help your driverless AV if it gets stuck? But yes, they are still fully autonomous because remote assistance does not control the car or tell the car what to do.

 

[marketisopen]

Details on Mobileye Drive Sensors and Hardware suite & L4 Robotaxi car plus ride along.

Wow incredible drive

 

[diplomat33]

Details on Mobileye Drive Sensors and Hardware suite & L4 Robotaxi car plus ride along.

Fantastic video. I continue to be very impressed with Mobileye. Note that Mobileye has self-cleaning on all the cameras, which Tesla does not have. Also nice that the AV can honk when it detects another vehicle cutting in badly. Also, we see the RSS and how the Mobileye car has good driving policy to know when to go, when to pass, when to give way.

Although I am sure @powertoold will make up some BS reason why Mobileye is a joke. LOL.

For me personally, I would feel very safe riding in the back seat of a Waymo or Mobileye robotaxi with no safety driver. I would not feel safe riding in the back seat of a driverless Tesla with FSD beta. That's my metric for FSD and why Waymo and Mobileye are my two favorite AV companies.

 

[Bladerskb]

Fantastic video. I continue to be very impressed with Mobileye. Although I am sure @powertoold will make up some BS reason why Mobileye is a joke. LOL.

For me personally, I would feel very safe riding in the back seat of a Waymo or Mobileye robotaxi with no safety driver. I would not feel safe riding in the back seat of a driverless Tesla with FSD beta. That's my metric for FSD and why Waymo and Mobileye are my two favorite AV companies.

The most impressive part to me is the cleaning system and how its elegantly implemented and also the honking. That's probably the first recorded autonomous honk. Mobileye's system is known to be assertive so i'm not surprised.

 

[powertoold]

Wow incredible drive

Why was the video cut at 5:43? Why did an unprotected left turn into a protected left? Bunch of smoke and mirrors once again my friends. What a shame.

 

[Bladerskb]

Wow incredible drive

wait until tesla sees the elegant cleaning solution on each camera and copies it lol.

 

[powertoold]

Andddd another Mobileye disengagement at 6:03. Holy cow.

Be Mobileye, show off some LiDAR ”robotaxi”, proceed to show their camera-only car fail multiple times within the span of 2 minutes.

What a joke. Just show us the actual clips without editing.

 

[diplomat33]

Andddd another Mobileye disengagement at 6:03. Holy cow.

Be Mobileye, show off some LiDAR ”robotaxi”, proceed to show their camera-only car fail multiple times within the span of 2 minutes.

What a joke. Just show us the actual clips without editing.

I was right. It didn't take long for you to make up a BS reason to call Mobileye a joke.

It did not fail multiple times in 2 minutes. What are you talking about?

And I did not see any disengagement at 6:03. The screen says "drive mode" so it was still in autonomous driving.