Autonomous Car Progress

[Daniel in SD]

The developer can tell you to always supervise the feature, but as long as the feature doesn't require / expect you to be a fallback driver, then it can be level 4/5...

That is incorrect. L3-5 do not require supervision. You don't even have to read the standard to know that, it's in all the summary charts!

 

[powertoold]

That is incorrect. L3-5 do not require supervision. You don't even have to read the standard to know that, it's in all the summary charts!

What I said is correct and actually corresponds to the charts. You can't just look at the one page graphics and claim to understand the definition lol

I never said level 5 can require supervision. You have to understand what the levels mean as it relates to the software feature.

The levels apply to the driving automation feature(s) that are engaged in any given instance of on-road operation of an equipped vehicle. As such, although a given vehicle may be equipped with a driving automation system that is capable of delivering multiple driving automation features that perform at different levels, the level of driving automation exhibited in any given instance is determined by the feature(s) that are engaged.

 

[diplomat33]

I acknowledge that you are more conversant than I am with the fine details of the SAE level definitions, but I feel that a human providing any input to the car while it is driving or otherwise not safely out of traffic goes against the whole concept of "autonomy," which is a machine doing a job on its own. This includes relying on its own mechanized sensing as well as calculations and decision-making. If it needs input from a human to operate safely and properly, then it's not autonomous. Level 4 is not full autonomy, but as I understand the spirit of L4, it differs from full autonomy only in that there are situations when it must find a safe place to park and only then can it ask for human assistance. If it needs human assistance on the go, then it's level 3.

It depends what kind of human input.

Put simply, the SAE says this:

If the human input does any dynamic driving tasks for the car = not autonomous

If the human input does not do any dynamic driving tasks for the car = still autonomous

So some types of human input for L4 is still ok if the car is still doing all the dynamic driving tasks on its own. L4 is still fully autonomous in this case because the car is doing all the dynamic driving tasks on its own.

 

[Daniel in SD]

What I said is correct and actually corresponds to the charts. You can't just look at the one page graphics and claim to understand the definition lol

I never said level 5 can require supervision. You have to understand what the levels mean as it relates to the software feature.

3.13 DYNAMIC DRIVING TASK (DDT)
All of the real-time operational and tactical functions required to operate a vehicle in on-road traffic, excluding the strategic functions such as trip scheduling and selection of destinations and waypoints, and including without limitation:
Lateral vehicle motion control via steering (operational);
Longitudinal vehicle motion control via acceleration and deceleration (operational);
Monitoring the driving environment via object and event detection, recognition, classification, and response preparation (operational and tactical);
Object and event response execution (operational and tactical); Maneuver planning (tactical); and
Enhancing conspicuity via lighting, signaling and gesturing, etc. (tactical).

The system is responsible for monitoring the driving environment.

 

[powertoold]

The system is responsible for monitoring the driving environment.

Not precise enough. The feature shouldn't require a fallback driver to perform the DDT.

You have to read the definition to really understand it. It goes into very specific details about what the roles are and what the levels apply to.

The levels have nothing to do with what the developer tells you... like by mouth or email. The developer can send an email saying YOU MUST SUPERVISE OUR CAR, even though the feature itself isn't designed to require supervision (there are no software prompts for example).

 

[Daniel in SD]

Not precise enough. The feature shouldn't require a fallback driver to perform the DDT.

You have to read the definition to really understand it. It goes into very specific details about what the roles are and what the levels apply to.

The levels have nothing to do with what the developer tells you... like by mouth or email.

So where are the "very specific details" that say L3-5 can require supervision?
If no one else here or in the industry interprets it the way you do then why is it relevant?

 

[powertoold]

So where are the "very specific details" that say L3-5 can require supervision?
If no one else here or in the industry interprets it the way you do then why is it relevant?

What you don't understand is that the levels apply to the software feature. I posted the excerpt above. You can choose to read it and see if it contradicts your understanding.

The software feature is separate from the developer. That's why the definition specifically points out that a level 4 feature is still level 4 even if the developer requires a safety driver because it's being road-tested. That's because the feature itself fulfills the specifications for level 4, but what the developer tells you is separate.

 

[diplomat33]

Here is a handy diagram by the SAE to help determine what SAE level a system is:

 

[Daniel in SD]

What you don't understand is that the levels apply to the software feature. I posted the excerpt above. You can choose to read it and see if it contradicts your understanding.

The software feature is separate from the developer. That's why the definition specifically points out that a level 4 feature is still level 4 even if the developer requires a safety driver because it's being road-tested. That's because the feature itself fulfills the specifications for level 4, but what the developer tells you is separate.

The levels apply to the driving automation feature(s) that are engaged in any given instance of on-road operation of an equipped vehicle. As such, although a given vehicle may be equipped with a driving automation system that is capable of delivering multiple driving automation features that perform at different levels, the level of driving automation exhibited in any given instance is determined by the feature(s) that are engaged.

Are you talking about this? This just covers the case where a vehicle may have multiple automation features.
For example a Mercedes EQS will (supposedly) have both L2 and L3 features.
When the traffic jam self-driving feature is enabled it is L3.
When the lane keeping and TACC features are enabled it is L2.
When only TACC is enabled it is L1.

 

[powertoold]

Are you talking about this? This just covers the case where a vehicle may have multiple automation features.
For example a Mercedes EQS will (supposedly) have both L2 and L3 features.
When the traffic jam self-driving feature is enabled it is L3.
When the lane keeping and TACC features are enabled it is L2.
When only TACC is enabled it is L1.

The levels are specifications that apply to the software feature. Not sure how to make it clearer than that. Whether the developer requires you to supervise or not may be unrelated to the software design.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The levels are specifications that apply to the software feature. Not sure how to make it clearer than that. Whether the developer requires you to supervise or not may be unrelated to the software design.

Or are you talking about the fact that L3-L5 test vehicles require supervision?

 

[powertoold]

Or are you talking about the fact that L3-L5 test vehicles require supervision?

That's one specific example that they mention. They mention that specific example so you can better understand what the levels mean. The example is not all inclusive.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That's one specific example that they mention. They mention that specific example so you can better understand what the levels mean. The example is not all inclusive.

No, that example has nothing to do with understanding the SAE levels. It's just stating the obvious fact that while you're developing a L3-L5 feature you need to have a safety driver.
Does anyone else share your understanding of SAE levels?

 

[powertoold]

Does anyone else share your understanding of SAE levels?

Doesn't seem like anyone here understands the levels as a whole. They take things out of context.

 

[Microterf]

Lmao.

I can't believe we're having this debate again. Look at the flowchart that @diplomat33 posted.

Now for simplification purposes, think of liability of whoever is in the car.

When whatever the autonomy features are engaged, when the passenger (even if you're in the driver seat) is not liable if something happens, tells you everything you need to know.

Period, thats it.

 

[daniel]

In a nutshell, the levels mean nothing to me anymore. Their definitions are well-understood by very few, and they don't help gauge progress or performance whatsoever, so what's the whole point of using them if what we really care about is how the fsd performs in the real world (without human decision making or interaction)?

I pretty much agree with this, with caveats. I've been saying ever since the SAE definitions came out that they are inadequate for knowing what a car can actually do. Except for Level 5 which is completely autonomous and only needs to be told where you want to go. And optionally, when.

The definitions do mean something: L2: I'm responsible; L3: I can stop paying attention but need to be ready to take over; L4: I can sleep in the back and the car will park safely and wake me up if it needs to; L5: The car can drive from L.A. to NYC or from Miami to Fargo with nobody in it, or with kids who are incapable of assisting in a any way.

But other than L5, the definitions do not say where or under what conditions the autonomous functions can operate. There's nothing about being L2 that tells me my car cannot operate safely on South Kihei Rd. There's nothing about L4 that tells us that the Waymo cars can operate in Chandler but not in Sedona. A car at Levels 1 through 4 might be able to operate in 99% of the country 99% of the time, or it might be able to operate only in a single 5-mile-square area during the daytime in clear, dry, cloudless weather. The level number doesn't tell us.

But I still insist that the word "autonomy" means operating by itself. Any human input other than destination is by definition not autonomous. Levels 2 through 4 are not fully autonomous and allow a certain amount of human input. And a car that requires constant monitoring by a human is not L3, 4, or 5.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Doesn't seem like anyone here understands the levels as a whole. They take things out of context.

Why not just use the industry accepted understanding?
Especially since your unique interpretation results in them being useless by your own admission?

 

[powertoold]

Why not just use the industry accepted understanding?
Especially since your unique interpretation results in them being useless by your own admission?

My interpretation isn't unique. It's actually the definition.

 

[Daniel in SD]

My interpretation isn't unique. It's actually the definition.

The developer can tell you to always supervise the feature, but as long as the feature doesn't require / expect you to be a fallback driver, then it can be level 4/5...

This is a unique interpretation, I've never seen anyone here or in the industry say this.
If you're the only one who believes this then why does it matter?

 

[Microterf]

I pretty much agree with this, with caveats. I've been saying ever since the SAE definitions came out that they are inadequate for knowing what a car can actually do. Except for Level 5 which is completely autonomous and only needs to be told where you want to go. And optionally, when.

The definitions do mean something: L2: I'm responsible; L3: I can stop paying attention but need to be ready to take over; L4: I can sleep in the back and the car will park safely and wake me up if it needs to; L5: The car can drive from L.A. to NYC or from Miami to Fargo with nobody in it, or with kids who are incapable of assisting in a any way.

But other than L5, the definitions do not say where or under what conditions the autonomous functions can operate. There's nothing about being L2 that tells me my car cannot operate safely on South Kihei Rd. There's nothing about L4 that tells us that the Waymo cars can operate in Chandler but not in Sedona. A car at Levels 1 through 4 might be able to operate in 99% of the country 99% of the time, or it might be able to operate only in a single 5-mile-square area during the daytime in clear, dry, cloudless weather. The level number doesn't tell us.

But I still insist that the word "autonomy" means operating by itself. Any human input other than destination is by definition not autonomous. Levels 2 through 4 are not fully autonomous and allow a certain amount of human input. And a car that requires constant monitoring by a human is not L3, 4, or 5.

That's because the manufacturer defines the ODD not the Levels.

Waymo is Level 4 because it can do everything within the ODD (Chandler) without expectationof the passenger being responsible, but it's not level 5 because it can't go everywhere and do the same thing.

Tesla is level 2 because Tesla says you have to pay attention and you are responsible if something happens while the ADAS system are engaged.

If Tesla pushed out an update that allowed it to go 2 million miles between incidents everywhere in the world, it would still be level 2 until they said you don't have to pay attention.