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AutoPilot 1 vs AutoPilot 2.0: why AP1 is still better

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by aikisteve, May 30, 2018.

  1. aikisteve

    aikisteve Member

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    In my test videos I frequently talk about AP1 still being better than AP2. This tie, with the help of another Model S driver I took it to the test and compared the 2 in the same conditions. As I claimed before, the dreaded S-curve is a lot better with AP1, whereas a lane shift is better with AP2.
    Overall, AP1 still wins out in my book.

     
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  2. P85_DA

    P85_DA Supporting Member

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    I drove AP1 for close to 50k miles and while good AP2.5 is smoother with the latest updates ...aside from car avatars not showing on the sides I prefer AP2x my $.02
     
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  3. snd92

    snd92 Member

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    AP1 FTW
     
  4. Kanting

    Kanting Member

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    AP1 really is for the world isn't it? Maybe it's because AP2 is designed in California.
     
  5. aikisteve

    aikisteve Member

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    I've been trying to get beta access for ages now, hoping that I could help improve the software by testing it thoroughly on our impossible Belgian roads with road signs galore and sometimes ridiculously placed signs/traffic lights, stupidly short highway exits and 2-way roads with no markings and barely room to pass each other without driving into the bike lane or hitting parked cars.
     
  6. Yinn

    Yinn Active Member

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    As a previous AP1 owner and a current AP2 owner; I always thought AP1 was better. That is until recently when I started thinking AP2 is about the point of where AP1 was when I had left it about 1 year ago. This past week I did a swap for a couple of days with the friend who bought my AP1....I miss my AP1 :(

    I still stick by - the differences are not noticeable unless you're looking for them. If you never had an AP1 and you bought an AP2; you're not missing out. If you're on AP1 and thinking about moving to AP2 - if that's the only reason it's not worth the cost to upgrade. They're both good enough to use the majority of the time, with each excelling in different areas.
     
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  7. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    AP2 remains deficient relative to AP1 for 4 additional reasons:

    1. AP2 does not react to speed limit signs as does AP1. It relies upon an error-ridden database, the net result of which is either AS driving too fast in school zones or too slow on highways (examples of both cases have already been enumerated). Clearly, an AP3 solution that offers both would be the win here for dynamic adjustments with database backup.

    2. AP2 brought us phantom braking - triggered by the occasional overpass, adjacent stationary vehicles, gremlins, and rifts in the space-time continuum.

    3. Less information in the IC - no vehicular differentiation.

    4. AP2 crosses the double yellow and other lane demarcation. Rarely did AP1 ever do this, and AP2 does this with alarming regularity.

    The characterizations that AP1 is more stable and AP2 is more like a teenage driver are fairly accurate.

    Eventually AP2 will surpass AP1 or at least that’s what the marketing materials tell us, given the extra cameras and sensors. Meanwhile, both continue to improve.

    I regret the purchase of my AP2 car. Had Tesla been less dishonest in late 2016 and early 2017 in particular with regard to AP capabilities as well as included supercharging disappearing and reappearing 6 weeks later, I would have kept my AP1 car and saved easily $35K and counting.

    Fortunately, there are more AP1 cars coming off lease now. The other day I met a fellow at an SvC during my now twice monthly visits and he had... brace yourselves... a pre-owned P85+ that may have the parking sensors*... I’ll pause here to let that significance sink in :)

    ...

    ...


    * It was the case that having the parking sensors meant that the car was AP1-capable. The current owner will investigate. P85+ cars, which also have the added benefit of being RWD, that are also AP-enabled are almost as rare as these:

    EDA34DF5-2394-4F71-A666-5F0389602E61.gif
     
  8. commasign

    commasign Tesla Superfan

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    I love that AP1 doesn’t nag as much as AP2. On a 30 minute drive on AP1 I count maybe 3 nags total. On AP2 (Model 3 on 2018.20) feels like a nag ever minute or two.
     
  9. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    Good point - I forgot about the nagging. It’s worse than just the nagging (up to every 20-30 seconds in some cases) as well:

    With AP1, there was more effective alerting. With AP2 it’s very easy to miss the cues and then you end up with 1 of 2 less safe scenarios - either no AS for the rest of your trip, or no AS until you pull over, put the car in Park, then in Drive, merge back into traffic, and continue on.

    Out of principle, I refuse to repurpose perfectly good citrus to defeat the nagging. No water bottles, no fishing weights, and no contraptions such as what that fellow tried to sell hereabouts for some amount of money that equated to a decade-long supply of oranges.

    It would be nice if Tesla simply took the best from AP1 (see more effective nag alerts, far more functional speed limit management, and vehicular identification) and replicated it instead of giving us less for years now with AP2.

    I commend anyone with AP1 for waiting until AP3, which will be ostensibly powered by Tesla’s own SoC/board. Having *that* in a Model 3 (with all cameras and sensors working) will be phenomenal and will once again serve notice to the rest of the industry.
     
  10. commasign

    commasign Tesla Superfan

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    #10 commasign, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
    Also, AP1 seems more consistent and predictable. I know when the freeway curves by a certain degree to expect a nag, and I know what situations at interchanges and ramps (or even just how nearby cars are behaving) to take over. With AP2, it's still so early in development and keeps changing with each release that it's hard to get a good feel for how it'll react in various situations. In other words, there are still a lot of situations it's best not to use AP1, but the performance has been so stable that I have a pretty good feel for when to use it and when not to. With AP2, it's like starting over. My learned experiences with AP1 don't carry over to AP2. I'm sure it'll get better over time (and with driver experience), but right now I feel a lot more comfortable driving an AP1 car than an AP2 car.
     
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  11. aaron0k

    aaron0k Member

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    Are MobileEye/Intel developers still working on AP1 for Tesla? Is/Was there any internal competition between them and the Tesla devs?
     
  12. X Fan

    X Fan Supporting Member

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    Thanks for feedback folks.

    I have a 2 yr old AP1 X and am taking delivery of a new X this month (keeping the “old” one).

    We planned on taking it from N.C. to FL upon delivery but maybe I’m better off taking the original one until the nag/overpass bugs are worked out (I’m also figuring on a few delivery hiccups ;) too).
     
  13. bmah

    bmah Moderator, Model S / Model X Forums

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    Hmmm...are you sure about that? I was under the impression that there are pre-AP1 cars with parking sensors. (In other words they had the ultrasonic sensors, but not the camera, radar, and MobilEye processor.) To me the only way to distinguish autopilot-capable, pre-refresh cars from the outside is the radar unit under the nosecone and the autopilot camera housing at the top of the windshield. AP1-equipped P85 and P85+ are indeed rare finds.

    Can't comment on the actual topic of the thread since to this day I still haven't driven an AP2 car, so sue me for going off-topic. :)

    Bruce.
     
  14. commasign

    commasign Tesla Superfan

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    That is correct. Parking sensors alone do not guarantee autopilot. Parking sensors were introduced in October or November 2013. My previous S was a late 2013 P85 (non-AP) with parking sensors, folding mirrors, and red calipers, one of the first with these new features.

    AP1 was introduced in mid-September 2014. There are only a few hundred P85 and P85+ with AP1. Tesla discontinued P85 and P85+ shortly after the dual motor and AP1 unveiling event.
     
  15. fasteddie7

    fasteddie7 Member

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    Close...but ap1 still somehow takes it. Can’t be too much longer before they start improving together, with the eventual ap2 passing ap1 by.
     
  16. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    Thanks gents.

    I had forgotten the rectangular radar module below the nosecone and the camera housing. The former I did find to be pretty robust when it impacted a Darwin Award-winning coyote outside of Needles one night - drove 1800 miles without any cruise control whatsoever to the St. Louis SvC who demonstrated world class service while removing the blood and fur. But I digress.

    The unveiling event for AP1 was in October 2014, whereat it was disclosed that some cars already had the requisite hardware (commasign's note about when AP1 made it into production September 2014). And sure enough - it was parking sensors *and* the other hardware.

    Those few hundred (and I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 P85+/AP1 cars left) are rare and special cars indeed. I look forward to acquiring one to replace the current AP2 car. It just has to have enough miles left under warranty (hence my focus upon lease returns) for the next 2-3 years of driving while the new SoC and what I've dubbed AP3 push FSD into not just reality (once they introduce the first FSD feature they're going to call FSD usable) but into a decent state of usefulness. The analogy I would use is the state of AS on October 15th, 2015 (at 70mph at night around a banked curve on I-89 from NH into VT right before an exit that AS decided looked good, but again I digress) versus how AS functions today.
     
  17. cab

    cab Member

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    The visual cues are the camera housing, the radar box in the grill area under the nose cone (which can be hard to see in pics when shopping online) and the one EXTRA parking sensor on the wrap-around sides of the front and rear bumpers (4 total additional sensors).
     
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  18. BBB2

    BBB2 Member

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    Hi guys. New to this forum. Sorry to hijack the thread but didn’t see how to start a new thread/didn’t want to start new thread since there are so many old ones already there. My question actually revolves around AP1 vs 2

    I’m thinking of a CPO and started searching 2 weeks ago. I don’t make big purchases often but when I do I generally want the most bang for the buck (don’t we all) but at the same time I don’t wanna cheap out by 5-10grans and regret it later. I’m looking for a model S with the facelifted front but can’t decide on Ap 1 vs 2.0. I did some google searching and lots of people seem to like 1.0 better than 2.0 but a lot of those threads/videos are from appx 6-10 months ago. Wondering y’alls Opinion on the matter now? When looking at CPOs I found that AP2.0 cars are generally range in the 68000-72000 dollar range (for less than 10,000 miles) while those with AP1.0 (in the 7000 to 15000 mile range) go for anywhere between 49000 to 55000 dollars. That’s a HUGE difference but again, I’ll pay it if it means I’m getting something significantly better long term. Thought?
     
  19. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    Short version: Having owned both with over 100,000 miles driven altogether and counting, my $0.02 is to spend as little money as possible for the next 2-3 years until FSD a) exists and b) matures. If I had it to do over again, I’d’ve kept my AP1 car and it’s not close. You can find good AP1 RWD S85s closer to $40-45K (but be quick). Unless you want to wait to see if leasing a Model 3 makes sense.

    Good luck.
     
  20. aikisteve

    aikisteve Member

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    It's quite simple now. V9 which has just been released has surpassed AP1 greatly. And it will continue to improve. AP1 is stagnated now and won't get much improvement anymore, if at all. So, if AP is important for you, definitely go for AP2 now!
     
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