Autopilot 2.0 is dangerous

[Electroman]

oktane - not getting your message. I have read your other four dozen posts on this and it seems you are hinting at something but you are being too subtle. Can you elaborate on this on a couple of more posts in a few more topics please ?

I get the feeling you are not too happy with AP2, but you didn't use the phrases, "it tired to kill me". "On a $100K car,..". So I am not sure.

 

[Shock-On-T]

You're right that the car is fun to drive. But there are many situations that are not fun. Like the 50 mile drive from San Antonio to Austin when the interstate has very heavy traffic and the speed is varying between 25 and 75mph the entire way.

This!
I find bumper to bumper traffic the perfect time for autopilot.

 

[Shock-On-T]

That's a really good example. An automatic transmission is a little bit easier to drive and gives the driver a little bit less control. I lament the fact that it's getting increasingly hard to find cars with manual transmissions, even in Europe. Automatic transmissions are BORING.

If you don't really like driving, why would you buy a Tesla? There are plenty of more comfortable cars and cheaper cars, and there always will be. Or why don't you take a train, bus, or Taxi? I ENJOY driving. For me it's a source of PLEASURE. I get a thrill from manipulating the controls and feeling the acceleration.

The difference is that you can use AP selectively.
If you feel like a spirited drive you can, but if you're in bumper-to-bumper commuter hell, or a long dreary highway, you can let the car take the strain (and catch up on your emails once AP is L5).

 

[cwerdna]

And to people saying AP could cause an accident, well still to date no self-driving vehicle has ever gotten into a car accident due to the fault of the system, it's always been another human-driven vehicle causing the accident. Google has had their self driving cars drive millions of miles with no incidents, and their self-driving technology is older and a lot clunkier. AP is a drivers assistance feature, not a let me turn it on and not pay attention feature.

Google self-driving car crashes into a bus (update: statement)

As for your latter statement, well, look at the CA disengagement reports for Tesla vs Waymo (part of Google...err Alphabet) at Autonomous Vehicle Disengagement Reports 2016.

For 2016, Tesla drove 550 autonomous miles on CA public roads in 2 months only. From other posts and reports, it was seemingly for the purpose of the publicity stunt videos in Oct and Nov 2016. My guesstimate was 150+ disengagements since the report was scanned in. Another report said it was 177.

In contrast, Google/Waymo did 635.8K miles on CA public roads and 124 disengagements, at a rate of 0.20 disengagements per 1000 miles. AFAIK, in contrast to Waymo's efforts, AP 2 cannot execute turns (excluding lane changes and following a lane), can't read stop signs, can't recognize traffic lights and isn't meant to be driven in city traffic Who has the "clunkier" technology?

Testing of Autonomous Vehicles has link to Report of Traffic Accident Involving an Autonomous Vehicle (OL 316). I have not done more than skim a few.

 

[OBX John]

Just had a five hour drive using AP extensively. I had three "events" where the car braked unexpectedly or became confused.

Luckily I remembered I was still driving, so I took over, and no harm was done.

Arrived refreshed and amazed at how much easier AP made what used to be a very long and stressful trip.

 

[Electroman]

Just had a five hour drive using AP extensively. I had three "events" where the car braked unexpectedly or became confused.

Luckily I remembered I was still driving, so I took over, and no harm was done.

Arrived refreshed and amazed at how much easier AP made what used to be a very long and stressful trip.

Hold on. That can't be true! I remember reading right here multiple times that AP is a scam. The search capabilities of this forum are quite poor and I can't quickly find those posts for you, but I swear I read it

 

[Snowstorm]

I'm very curious to understand why your car went into the shop on day 4? Do you mind sharing? Thanks

Don't want to hijack his thread, I pm'ed u the details.

 

[Don85D]

AP is a feature of the car that is not ready for prime time. We all know this yet it is a hot topic on this forum for those who justified buying the car for that feature.

We bought our Model S because it has the range and comfort to replace a gasoline car. We bought it because we can run it on sunshine using our solar array. We bought it because it's the future for our grandkids and this technology should not be allowed to die.

If you look at the big picture AP is not significant and when it is ready for prime time our cars will get updates. Until then, if driver fatigue is really an issue consider taking a bus or hire a chauffeur.

I know that forums are places for complaints and that's why I'm taking a break from this one for a while.

 

[oktane]

AP is a feature of the car that is not ready for prime time. We all know this yet it is a hot topic on this forum for those who justified buying the car for that feature.

We bought our Model S because it has the range and comfort to replace a gasoline car. We bought it because we can run it on sunshine using our solar array. We bought it because it's the future for our grandkids and this technology should not be allowed to die.

If you look at the big picture AP is not significant and when it is ready for prime time our cars will get updates. Until then, if driver fatigue is really an issue consider taking a bus or hire a chauffeur.

I know that forums are places for complaints and that's why I'm taking a break from this one for a while.

See you in 2 years when AP2 starts working and the complaints subside.

Satisfaction amongst Tesla owners would have been much higher if they didn't lie about their product. The car is good enough itself as an EV without a fake AP2 feature.

Like you said, people like me purchased largely on the autonomous features and less so for the EV, and hence the dissatisfaction. I guess there were not enough people interested in just the EV part of it to reach sales numbers, so Tesla decided to lie about AP2 to rope people like me (on the fence) into ownership.

But you're right, EV is the future, and I understand your position.

 

[mrkisskiss]

I find that AP2 is actually quite useful, even in its current state. Granted, it's not as smooth or robust as AP1 (and don't get me started on auto high beams or rain sensing wipers) but generally speaking, in stop-and-go traffic and simple highway driving, AP2 is pretty good. It does do random things, and doesn't seem to stick in the middle of the lane as much as AP1 did (presumably because it's learned a generalised driving style from us, and we - as humans - rarely stick in the middle of the lane?!). It's a bit twitchy, and that keeps you alert for sure at highway speeds.

So, I voted neutral. It's not great, it's not terrible. It's close to where AP1 was, but rougher round the edges. I'm looking forward to the updates and hopefully in 6 months it's a vast and noticeable improvement and departure from AP1. I do think Tesla were painted into a corner when Mobileye tore up the contract.

In the meantime, I'll use it in heavy traffic, or regular motorway driving, and it makes the trip a bit nicer.

 

[calisnow]

@oktane - hopefully we are just a few weeks away from an update which makes ap2 smoother but don't you think 8.1 is pretty good at this point? It is not as smooth as ap1 for sure but it's usable imho. And I've found several instances where it is more reliable. This is the worst it will ever be and it is still in its infancy.

 

[Tribaltech]

AP is a feature of the car that is not ready for prime time. We all know this yet it is a hot topic on this forum for those who justified buying the car for that feature.

We bought our Model S because it has the range and comfort to replace a gasoline car. We bought it because we can run it on sunshine using our solar array. We bought it because it's the future for our grandkids and this technology should not be allowed to die.

If you look at the big picture AP is not significant and when it is ready for prime time our cars will get updates. Until then, if driver fatigue is really an issue consider taking a bus or hire a chauffeur.

I know that forums are places for complaints and that's why I'm taking a break from this one for a while.

I don't get your type of disdain and condescending tone. I really don't. A forum is meant for people to voice their opinions, facts and talk about something related to a particular subject (herein the subject being Tesla cars).

I bought my Tesla for the very same reasons you pointed out. Future of this planet and good range, etc. etc. But why am I so wrong in voicing my concerns with a feature that was one of the key selling points that Tesla started to tout many months in advance. When they introduced AP 2.0 they shouted from the rooftops about it. It was plastered all over their website and I saw quite a few videos showcasing how well the thing performed. But reality struck when I took delivery of my car and was told that none of the features would be available for months. Its kinda misleading. Its like Delta or Emirates touts their amazing new first class experience and you're like "ok i'm going to go ahead and purchase a first class seat for myself for my next travels". So you go ahead and spend $20,000 for a ticket. And then when you board a plane you are told "well sir the new first class isn't going to be ready for another year o for now you will need to sit in Economy for this particular flight. Raincheck, we will have you covered in a year from now, don't worry"

Good for you that you don't like complaining. You are perhaps one of the better, more zen human beings on this planet. Bravo! At the same time I don't believe in being blindly in love with a product or company, so therefore I will comment on these forums as I wish.

 

[steve841]

Yeah, but you all got that trusty, useful notepad easter egg !!!

I'd loved to have given the "are you serious" look to the developer who devoted time for that .....

 

[oktane]

@oktane - hopefully we are just a few weeks away from an update which makes ap2 smoother but don't you think 8.1 is pretty good at this point? It is not as smooth as ap1 for sure but it's usable imho. And I've found several instances where it is more reliable. This is the worst it will ever be and it is still in its infancy.

I find AP2 to be marginally useful and frankly dangerous at this point. Yes, I still use it to probe its limitations. In low speed traffic, I feel more comfortable with it, since even if I did crash it would only be damaged toys and not damaged humans. At high speeds, passengers complain about it and beg me not to use it.

Right now it is mainly a proof-of-concept or a toy for geeks. It's not reliable or safe enough for non-tech people to safely even test. No way I'd let my elderly parents engage it, would you?

I feel we are long overdue for an incremental update. I will gladly admit my mistake in judging Tesla if they come out with an AP2 that exceeds AP1 by June 2017, but we all know that isn't happening. Probably won't happen for at least 1 year and there is a chance it will never happen.

Too bad Tesla refuses to even acknowledge their mistake and communicate what is going on. We are left here on TMC to speculate and fight each other about it.

 

[azred]

It will be interesting to see the price of these features and the representations by salespeople when Model 3 configurator opens in a couple months. I guess if Tesla salespeople are still lying to new customers, almost everyone who doesn't hang out on this forum will check at least the AP2 option box. But it's one thing for people who spent $75k to $150k to buy a buggy feature for $5k/$3k, quite another for the masses buying a $35k+ car on a tight budget. (Of course that assumes the AP2 and FSD software prices remain at their lofty levels and I doubt that will happen. Then watch this forum explode.)

 

[idealsol]

Finally got a chance to try TACC on a road trip. Orange County to Santa Barbara and back so close to 300 miles of freeway driving. No autosteer as I don't really trust it yet and there are also some tight spots with very close k rail.
The TACC was great for most the trip. Maybe 3 small phantom braking incidents. Only had to disengage once . On the way back going from the 110 to the 405 it didn't handle the transition as it seemed to lose track of the car in front of me and was going way to fast to make the turn

 

[J1mbo]

On the way back going from the 110 to the 405 it didn't handle the transition as it seemed to lose track of the car in front of me and was going way to fast to make the turn

AFAIK, slowing for corners is not a feature of TACC (only Autosteer in AP1).

TACC will keep to the speed you set unless the car in front of you slows down. You get to choose how sensitive it is before it slows down.

Or are you saying that it failed to slow when the car in front was slowing?

 

[NerdUno]

Too bad Tesla refuses to even acknowledge their mistake and communicate what is going on. We are left here on TMC to speculate and fight each other about it.

Not to worry. Plenty of diehard AP1 fanboys still around to carry the water for Elon and regurgitate all of their stories about how much they had to suffer to reach The Promised Land. Oh yeah, and it'll be worth it.

 

[gearchruncher]

AFAIK, slowing for corners is not a feature of TACC (only Autosteer in AP1).

I've absolutely had TAAC alone slow down the car for a tight curve in my AP2 car. It slows *before* the curve, before autosteer would need to do anything. It does this with nobody ahead of me.

It's not reliable though. It doesn't slow down for every curve that needs it.

 

[calisnow]

I find AP2 to be marginally useful and frankly dangerous at this point. Yes, I still use it to probe its limitations. In low speed traffic, I feel more comfortable with it, since even if I did crash it would only be damaged toys and not damaged humans. At high speeds, passengers complain about it and beg me not to use it.

Right now it is mainly a proof-of-concept or a toy for geeks. It's not reliable or safe enough for non-tech people to safely even test. No way I'd let my elderly parents engage it, would you?

I feel we are long overdue for an incremental update. I will gladly admit my mistake in judging Tesla if they come out with an AP2 that exceeds AP1 by June 2017, but we all know that isn't happening. Probably won't happen for at least 1 year and there is a chance it will never happen.

Too bad Tesla refuses to even acknowledge their mistake and communicate what is going on. We are left here on TMC to speculate and fight each other about it.

My experience with autopilot 2 on 8.1 is 180 degrees different from yours. Where do you live and drive? I'm starting to think you have a defective Tesla because aside from your continual claims that your car is driving drunk (and crashing into your garage) you sound like a reasonable person. OR we have very different opinions on what "safe" vs "dangerous" means and what "drunk" or "toy for geeks" mean.

Levels of safe vs dangerous to me are defined statistically - is that reasonable to you? I did not have AP2 prior to 8.1 so I can't speak to it. But as for AP2 8.1 vs my AP1 I find AP2 to be every bit as safe if not safer.

AP2 does wander inside the lane more - granted. Yes, it does do some phantom braking for underpasses. Yes, the lane changes are not as smooth as AP1. These are minor quibbles which we all know will be ironed out over the coming updates.

Having said that it doesn't do anything which seems dangerous (ie likely to crash or cause a crash) to me and it is a useful tool I engage every time I get on the freeway. I have put, I think, over 1,000 miles on it in the last few weeks. The lane wandering is only when I don't have a leade car, and even then it is very minor - it doesn't leave the lane it just is not as rock steady as my AP1 70D.

As for safety my AP1 car has failed to negotiate a merging freeway lane numerous times and simply headed for the shoulder/barrier. My AP2 car has not done this one single time. AP1 has gone bonkers in some construction zones that AP2 sailed through with no issue.

Let's take some video and compare - honestly, maybe something is wrong with your car.