Autopilot appears to turn car against incoming car

[S4WRXTTCS]

Yes. It's the user's fault. Clearly. It always is. Because they turned on autosteer.
The problem is, everything comes with dozens of warnings and caveats. And no one reads them. And things work great and users try the new exciting feature and get comfortable. Until something scary happens.
I think this will turn into a PR disaster for Tesla. And we will see the AP enforcing "only on access controlled freeways" before we get to 7.1.

I have no intention of upgrading to v7 (the UI is way too craptastic). But in part this decision is easier for me because I have absolutely ZERO intention of using autosteer. Certainly not in the current pre-alpha implementation. Not when it eventually reaches beta. And likely not when it reaches "ready for general population use" in about 2020. I worry how long Tesla will let me reject "upgrades", but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. For now videos like this just confirm what I felt about v7 all along.

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I call it reckless endangerment. But I'm not a lawyer.
And I'm sure Tesla's lawyers are comfortable that the disclaimer and the lack of precedent will protect them in the inevitable lawsuits once we see the first crashes.
In the meantime I'm thinking of adding a "still on FW6.2" sticker to my car to assure drivers around me that I'm not being driven around by pre-alpha quality software...

There isn't any lane-steering car on the market today that could have handled this situation. The problem with this video is it doesn't convey all the information that's necessary to see what actually occurred. We only know that it turned off before the car turned into traffic. The only question is how much warning was given to the driver before it happened. Tesla is really clear about keeping both hands on the wheel which the driver chose to ignore. The driver didn't have tactile feedback because he didn't have his hands at the wheel.

Furthermore we know that it's inevitable that crashes will happen during this transitional period. In fact lawsuits have probably already happened with systems from other manufactures. I'm not aware of any though, but I'm sure if I went looking I'd find precedence.

As to whether autosteering is alpha, beta, or whatever I don't think it's relevant because to my knowledge in its current embodiment it's not any worse than other system on the market today. There are systems from other car manufactures that would have allowed this particular driver to do the same thing as he did. I see it being called beta because Tesla is ambitious with where they'd like to go with it. I believe it's safe if the user follows the instructions. It's not like the beta of trip planner/range assurance which is/was about as craptastic as all can be.

I don't want a car that prevents me from doing something simply because a bunch of lawyers said no. I absolutely hate that. On my Jeep I can't even use the navigation system fully because some lawyer said no. That only certain functions would be available while the car is moving. Tesla doesn't have the same limitations so is it Tesla's fault if someone gets into a crash because the user is stupid?

As to the FW7.0 UI/UX I thought it was craptastic from the pictures/videos before the release. But, now that I've driven with it awhile I don't think it's that bad. It has grown on me, and I'm sure V7.1 will add the few missing things that will make most people happy. I think it's worth upgrading for all the other improvements made. Plus it's a fight you won't win and resistance is futile. Why? Because you won't get any other updates or security fixes. You won't get the improvement made to the energy efficiency of the HVAC for example. Plus there are improvements made to blind spot monitor (now side monitoring). There are just too many things to let the UI change prevent you from getting. I imagine there are also improvements to TACC, but TACC was pretty good in the last version of V6.2 so I haven't noticed anything. You don't have to use auto-steer just like you don't have to use TACC. But, like TACC it's nice if you don't expect miracles. People misusing or not understanding TACC were responsible for crashes as well.

 

[dsm363]

Autosteer is turned off by default I believe so the person who uses it is consciously choosing to do so.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Isn't Autopilot supposed to pull you safely over to the side if you do not take control after it tells you? Why did AP simple disengage in this case and not pull over to the side of the road, like it is supposed to?

There seems to be a lot of confusion about this because on the leaked release notes the system had this behavior, but it's not on the release notes for the released version of V7.0. On the released version it simply says the car will slow down, and it will eventually stop with the emergency blinkers on. Which is the same behavior that other car companies have for their systems.

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Autosteer is turned off by default I believe so the person who uses it is consciously choosing to do so.

Plus every time you turn it on the car tells you to keep both hands on the steering wheel and this person consciously chose to ignore that.

 

[stevej119]

RockTreeStar 1 day ago
"The software is clearly labeled "beta." This means it's not finished and that testers should put it through all possible scenarios to provide feedback to the engineers for improving it."

This was the "Autopilot tried to kill me" driver's response on youtube to the many, many posters there telling him he was an idiot for doing what he did.

 

[dirkhh]

As to the FW7.0 UI/UX I thought it was craptastic from the pictures/videos before the release. But, now that I've driven with it awhile I don't think it's that bad. It has grown on me, and I'm sure V7.1 will add the few missing things that will make most people happy. I think it's worth upgrading for all the other improvements made. Plus it's a fight you won't win and resistance is futile. Why? Because you won't get any other updates or security fixes. You won't get the improvement made to the energy efficiency of the HVAC for example. Plus there are improvements made to blind spot monitor (now side monitoring). There are just too many things to let the UI change prevent you from getting. I imagine there are also improvements to TACC, but TACC was pretty good in the last version of V6.2 so I haven't noticed anything. You don't have to use auto-steer just like you don't have to use TACC. But, like TACC it's nice if you don't expect miracles. People misusing or not understanding TACC were responsible for crashes as well.

Interestingly I've heard this sentiment (bold above is mine) from a few people. And I don't think I agree. The "blind spot warning" is a joke - having that show up in instrument cluster is useless. Making it a better joke? Not interested. HVAC does what I want now - in V7 it no longer shows me fan speed and other settings. So I'm very comfortable with not having those "improvements". I turn off TACC the moment the traffic is slowing down in front of me because I hate how late and hard it decelerates, constantly ending up having to use friction breaks where a little foresight easily allows me to just use regen. Some claim this is better in V7, some say it still sucks. So not something I'll miss.

Fundamentally I actually like driving a car. Not being a passenger and talking myself into liking the driving decisions that a computer makes for me. I don't care if this is better than any other lane hold implementation. This is like saying "I found a way of punching yourself in the face that hurts less". What if I don't want to punch myself in the face? I think that's a better solution.

I have said this before. From all that I have seen so far there is exactly one thing I'm not getting which I think I would enjoy having. That's the per tire pressure display. The tradeoff for all the things I don't want is a no-brainer.

I understand that many others think differently. I also have seen quite a few people post with similar sentiment, and several people post who said "oh I wish I hadn't upgraded, how do I get back". None of this is statistically relevant and I'm not making any claims other than I actually believe that the majority appears to like it (or to talk themselves into liking it because it's cool technology and worth the tradeoff for a craptastic UI).

 

[dm33]

Is auto steer really useful? Why?

If I have to keep my hands on the steering wheel. If I have to pay attention at all times and can't take my eyes off the road, I'm pretty much driving. Moving my arms up and down a little isn't much more effort.

Thats my issue with all these assisted driving technologies. They all lull you into a sense that you can pay less attention to the road, but you really can't.

 

[dirkhh]

Is auto steer really useful? Why?

If I have to keep my hands on the steering wheel. If I have to pay attention at all times and can't take my eyes off the road, I'm pretty much driving. Moving my arms up and down a little isn't much more effort.

Thats my issue with all these assisted driving technologies. They all lull you into a sense that you can pay less attention to the road, but you really can't.

Bingo. Full credits for this class, Sir/Mam. I don't want to be lulled. I don't want other drivers (note that word? drivers​, not passengers) to be lulled.

Edited to add: my apologies - it's of course silly to assume that you are male... so Sir/Mam above...

 

[Larry Chanin]

Thats my issue with all these assisted driving technologies. They all lull you into a sense that you can pay less attention to the road, but you really can't.

I understand your point. However, most Driver Assist features work faster than human reflexes and can see better than human eyesight. Some of this discussion is moot since some Driver Assist safety features can't be disabled.

Larry

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Interestingly I've heard this sentiment (bold above is mine) from a few people. And I don't think I agree. The "blind spot warning" is a joke - having that show up in instrument cluster is useless. Making it a better joke? Not interested. HVAC does what I want now - in V7 it no longer shows me fan speed and other settings. So I'm very comfortable with not having those "improvements". I turn off TACC the moment the traffic is slowing down in front of me because I hate how late and hard it decelerates, constantly ending up having to use friction breaks where a little foresight easily allows me to just use regen. Some claim this is better in V7, some say it still sucks. So not something I'll miss.

Fundamentally I actually like driving a car. Not being a passenger and talking myself into liking the driving decisions that a computer makes for me. I don't care if this is better than any other lane hold implementation. This is like saying "I found a way of punching yourself in the face that hurts less". What if I don't want to punch myself in the face? I think that's a better solution.

I have said this before. From all that I have seen so far there is exactly one thing I'm not getting which I think I would enjoy having. That's the per tire pressure display. The tradeoff for all the things I don't want is a no-brainer.

I understand that many others think differently. I also have seen quite a few people post with similar sentiment, and several people post who said "oh I wish I hadn't upgraded, how do I get back". None of this is statistically relevant and I'm not making any claims other than I actually believe that the majority appears to like it (or to talk themselves into liking it because it's cool technology and worth the tradeoff for a craptastic UI).

With V6.2 I strongly felt that both the blindspot monitoring, and the lane departure system were both jokes. To the point where I turned them both off, and I didn't really need them anyways.

With V7.0 I haven't really had a chance to test out the side monitoring, but it seems improved. What has improved vastly in my opinion is the way they handle and present information from the ultrasonic sensors. When you're parking you get more detail for example.

I'm so OCD that the tire pressure monitoring system itself would be enough to upgrade. It still takes awhile to get the data from the sensors which I find odd because back when I had a Porsche Cayman it never took that long.

It is unfortunate that Tesla has gone the route of flat/clean instead of keeping it where it was at. As a result we have all these minimalistic icons like not showing the fan speeds and other settings. It also doesn't show you which defroster is which (sure I know the left one is the front). But, practically everything UI/UX related that I've loved and used over the years have been ruined. IOS was ruined, OS/X was ruined, Windows was ruined. Maybe they had to go bad to get better. Windows 10 isn't half bad now.

I did really learn one valuable lesson from the upgrade. I do in fact really like having one of my hands at the wheel. I do enjoy driving when I'm allowed to drive. The problem is so often neither of us are allowed to drive. We both live in places that have horrific traffic. We're not really driving. We're just following the car in front of us. Give me the open road, and then I'll drive.

Till then I'll have TACC on, and I'll occasionally use Auto-steer when warranted.

Hopefully all the auto-steer tried to kill me crap will blow over just like the TACC tried to kill me stuff blew over.

For now you should go check your tire pressure. It could be low you know?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Is auto steer really useful? Why?

If I have to keep my hands on the steering wheel. If I have to pay attention at all times and can't take my eyes off the road, I'm pretty much driving. Moving my arms up and down a little isn't much more effort.

Thats my issue with all these assisted driving technologies. They all lull you into a sense that you can pay less attention to the road, but you really can't.

That is the fundamental problem with Level II assisted driving technology. They allow the car to do things, but ultimately you're responsible for what happens. You're supposed to be keep your eyes on the road, and you're supposed to have at least one hand on the wheel.

There is no question that they can lull you into not paying attention.

So on the one hand it seems pointless, and even dangerous.

But, there is a BUT. There is always a but.

We live in a world where people are already paying less attention while they're driving. People are doing everything, but driving while behind the wheel. There have already been studies showing drastic reduction in rear end crashes when assistive technology is being used. When I commute to work not a day goes by where someone isn't driving in the bike lane because they can't be bothered to keep their car in the lane. Sometimes I do commute to work by bike, and I'd rather not be run over.

We also live in a world where people have absolutely no patience. When I'm on the freeway people are always constantly doing things to manage to get around someone just to go a mile an hour or two faster. It's absolutely bonkers. What if they were all using TACC? What would happen? They'd likely end up staying in one lane and not worrying about it. That's all I do when I use TACC. I just get in the appropriate lane for my speed, set the TACC and I relax. Both the car and I are working as a team to prevent me from crashing into someone. I know it's limits, and its behavior. It doesn't really know mine, but that's okay.

Will crashes happen as a result of drivers being lulled into not paying attention? Of course

But, overall over time crashes will greatly reduce because people won't be rear-ending each other, and people won't be hitting things on the side of the road.

 

[AWDtsla]

If it can only be used on the freeway, then why does Tesla allow its use when not on the freeway? Also, when did Autopilot come with a list of EXCEPTION scenarios where it should not be used?

If you're only supposed to use cruise control on the highway, why can you use cruise control anywhere?

If you're only supposed to go 30 mph on backroads, why can you go any speed you want?

If the the maximum speed limit in the country is 70 mph, why is any car allowed to go over 70?

Ad f---ing nauseam

Do you honestly believe a jury of 12 will take Tesla off the hook because of their fine print and disclaimers when vehicle fatalities are involved? Do you think it's the driver's job to figure out which definition of "highway" Tesla was using when they wrote the release notes? My gosh.

It's a legal agreement so yes.

What is unwise is releasing this feature as a beta in the first place.

Stop trying to stop the future.

 

[Electricfan]

Is auto steer really useful? Why?

If I have to keep my hands on the steering wheel. If I have to pay attention at all times and can't take my eyes off the road, I'm pretty much driving. Moving my arms up and down a little isn't much more effort.

Thats my issue with all these assisted driving technologies. They all lull you into a sense that you can pay less attention to the road, but you really can't.

Agree 100%, But, to me the point of Beta software is to allow them to improve it. They don't plan on it being this rough forever. One year from now hopefully it will be so good you can turn it on and read a book. Otherwise, it serves no purpose.

I hope Tesla survives long enough for this to happen. I almost wish they'd never tried autopilot, because the Model 3 is the most important step they can take - making electric cars with sufficient range for the masses at an affordable price - much more important than auto pilot.

 

[ecarfan]

No. I agree, that we don't know exactly what happened. We don't know if AP turned the wheel or not.

And that is why the thread should be re-titled.

 

[perkiset]

Bingo. Full credits for this class, Sir/Mam. I don't want to be lulled. I don't want other drivers (note that word? drivers​, not passengers) to be lulled.

Right. Well, with all due respect, your notion of "craptastic UI" a "pre-alpha release" or what you want or don't want in the car is neither a factual truism for the community in general or a widely held opinion. Your opinions, thus stated, make it impossible for someone that likes the direction to even comment affirmatively and not be labeled a "fanboy." Personally, I find your assertions wildly off-mark and none-too-vaguely insulting. Taking a step back and looking at the incredibly difficult task at hand of creating something that has never been, in a way that satisfies EVERYONE is both bold and audacious. I, for one, applaud Tesla for giving it a go.

Does it have challenges? Yes. Will it get better? Of course. Is it a step in the right direction? 100%.

Give it a bit of a rest man. Your dislike of the update has been widely noted.

 

[Freddy]

No. I agree, that we don't know exactly what happened. We don't know if AP turned the wheel or not.

What we do know with absolute certainty is that he should NOT have been using Autopilot on a non-divided road.
Am I right?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What we do know with absolute certainty is that he should NOT have been using Autopilot on a non-divided road.
Am I right?

He should have had at least one hand on the wheel in some fashion, and he should have read the manual on how to operate it. So he could understand it, and understand the limits of it. From my understanding he was testing the limits of it, but when you test the limits of something you make darn sure you maintain control. He failed to do this.

There is nothing wrong with using autopilot on an undivided highway if you're careful about it (hand on wheel, etc). Now I personally wouldn't do it because my personal experience with it is it's not worth the anxiety. Plus from my own testing it simply doesn't perform very well on the type of road he was on. The camera can't track over a crest on a hill. It also can't track around tight corners. It also potentially can have issues with shadows. There was a lot of things on that road that are clearly talked about in the manual.

 

[Matias]

What we do know with absolute certainty is that he should NOT have been using Autopilot on a non-divided road.
Am I right?

Release notes don't say that. How would we know that? Also non-divided road can be called highway. I have posted sources earlier in this thread.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Release notes don't say that. How would we know that? Also non-divided road can be called highway. I have posted sources earlier in this thread.

The feature was advertised as usable from "highway on ramp" to "highway off ramp" extensively. It was meant for use on divided highways - you couldn't have possibly miss this.

BTW, last time I checked, you were a fan of how things advertised; written definitions - not so much... Why switch now?

 

[mdevp]

To me the AP lost the car in front cresting over a hill, and tried to pick up that car up again. It instead picked up the Lexus as a good target to follow and could not immediately ascertain the car was coming towards and not away from the driver. Even though the AP swerved towards it may have corrected itself even if the driver didn't do anything, we will never know. (Don't know if this was already stated as obvious)

 

[LetsGoFast]

To me the AP lost the car in front cresting over a hill, and tried to pick up that car up again. It instead picked up the Lexus as a good target to follow and could not immediately ascertain the car was coming towards and not away from the driver. Even though the AP swerved towards it may have corrected itself even if the driver didn't do anything, we will never know. (Don't know if this was already stated as obvious)

I'm almost certain that it did not try to follow the Lexus. It will be quite well aware of the relative speed of itself and Lexus and there is no chance it would choose a follow a car closing on it at a high rate of speed. If you watch the dash, I've never once seen it acquire an oncoming car as a ghost. My understanding is that it is only following a car's track when it turns blue and that happens quite rarely and is always pretty slow -- car is in front, acquires ghost image in white, car turns blue. Each of those steps takes a measure of time.