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Autopilot: Crashed at 40mph
- Thread starter Tam
- Start date
eye.surgeon
Active Member
eye.surgeon
Active Member
Really? Google will accept liability for a system they don't even have on the market. How brave.
And it's the courts that will decide who accepts liability and who doesn't , not drivers and not manufacturers. I suspect Volvo and Mercedes legal council have told them they would be liable anyways so they are simply offering what they have to provide ultimately.
Sadly it will be legal, not technical, hurdles that hold back driver assistance technology.
The crux of the issue is the driver didn't realize that she had disabled TACC.
Under normal circumstances it's pretty easy to know when TACC is disabled since the car is going to be regen mode slowing you down. But, if she disabled TACC (by braking through muscle memory) during the incident she could have braked slightly, but then decided to allow the car to do it. Only without realizing she disabled TACC.
The AEB didn't kick in because by the time it kicks in she was already braking hard. There wasn't anything for it to really do. AEB on the Tesla is only meant to reduce the severity of a crash so it kicks in really late.
Of course we don't have access to the logs so we can't verify all of this, but it's the only way I can think of that this would have happened.
If it indeed happened this way does it show any weakness in the implementation?
I think it does in that there really should be three modes.
1.) TACC off -> Basic mode when you start the car, and when you use the control stalk to disable it.
2.) TACC on -> When you turn it on
3.) TACC half -> When you hit the brakes with TACC on. All this does is it maintains tacc in an "half" mode where it will continue to brake for traffic in front the car, but will not accelerate the car. This mode simply keeps people from accidently disabling tacc unintentionally.
This is the best I can come up with. Hopefully someone else has a better idea.
Personally I haven't had any issues with knowing whether TACC is on or off.
Under normal circumstances it's pretty easy to know when TACC is disabled since the car is going to be regen mode slowing you down. But, if she disabled TACC (by braking through muscle memory) during the incident she could have braked slightly, but then decided to allow the car to do it. Only without realizing she disabled TACC.
The AEB didn't kick in because by the time it kicks in she was already braking hard. There wasn't anything for it to really do. AEB on the Tesla is only meant to reduce the severity of a crash so it kicks in really late.
Of course we don't have access to the logs so we can't verify all of this, but it's the only way I can think of that this would have happened.
If it indeed happened this way does it show any weakness in the implementation?
I think it does in that there really should be three modes.
1.) TACC off -> Basic mode when you start the car, and when you use the control stalk to disable it.
2.) TACC on -> When you turn it on
3.) TACC half -> When you hit the brakes with TACC on. All this does is it maintains tacc in an "half" mode where it will continue to brake for traffic in front the car, but will not accelerate the car. This mode simply keeps people from accidently disabling tacc unintentionally.
This is the best I can come up with. Hopefully someone else has a better idea.
Personally I haven't had any issues with knowing whether TACC is on or off.
Being in AP would not have helped. Numerous people (including myself) have observed that AP will often not detect a stopped vehicle directly in front of you.
That is correct, but this was on I5 which is a freeway. The car in front of her suddenly braked so it's not a condition where it was a stopped car. Like you might have if coming up to car stopped at a red light.
As to detecting stopped cars/objects my belief is this will be greatly enhanced when they come up with the update to add more front cameras.
Would you remember Tesla source? A quote from a Gallery staff? Quote from factory staff...?
Elon did a demo on Youtube: "And it brakes by itself obviously."
larmor
Active Member
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I said this before....... Autopilots on Aircraft have an auditory (loud beep) and visual warning when it is disabled. Cars should have the same warnings!!
It does have forward collision warning, but we have no idea what distance it was set to. It's set to a distance before the AEB kicks in. So it's supposed to give ample warning.
It should have alerted the driver, and if it didn't then it's an issue.
But, maybe the driver ignored it.
I do think Tesla should come out with a simulator to allow customers to experience various situations and to purposely wreck their "virtual" cars. Just as a driver education tool.
You might think that all owners want autopilot or even autonomous driverless feature, but there are drivers who are against such feature because they are "drivers," not "riders" of some technology.
Thus, Tesla does not force the feature of accident avoidance on all owners.
It's a voluntary system, if you want it, you pay $2,500 for it.
And if you don't want it, you are in total control.
Again, Tesla AEB Automatic Emergency Braking system is not an accident avoidance feature. It allows an unavoidable accident to occur but with a lesser force. It does give out audio and visual warning of an unavoidable collision but again, it will be too late to prevent an accident at that time. It can only brake to slow down to make the collision less harsh.
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I agree that that would be a great educational tool!
Great idea! Maybe they should add that to their weekend meet and greet sessions. Add in autopilot emergency simulation to "how to use summon", etc...
Heck maybe throw in a mock up of a Dragon capsule! Now that would be FUN!
Forget that last line of silliness... That really is a great idea! Suspect it may boost adoption if people could play with a simulator before buying.
This was caused by the #1 problem of autopilot. Not knowing whether or not it is engaged. Twice now I've been cruising on the freeway thinking AP was on when it wasn't. There are many events which cause AP to turn off once you turn it on.
The only indication Tesla gives you that AP has turned off is a relatively quiet chime (and a very small icon that turns from blue to grey). This isn't enough of a warning that AP is no longer active. Tesla needs to address this now.
The only indication Tesla gives you that AP has turned off is a relatively quiet chime (and a very small icon that turns from blue to grey). This isn't enough of a warning that AP is no longer active. Tesla needs to address this now.
I had the same problem (also on I-5, what is it with this freeway?) - cars in front of me stopped "suddenly" and TACC/AP did nothing. I had to brake hard (anti-lock system engaged) to stop in time.
I absolutely can believe that the same has happened here.
Has anyone had autopilot disengage without the chime going off?
I had this happen on the freeway and had no idea til the car started drifting and I looked down and saw that the icon was gray. No brake pedal. Had my hand on the wheel and it was a curve with an exit. I think the car wanted to go toward the exit but my hand kept the wheel pointed in the lane. When the lane straightened I let go of the wheel and it started to drift.
Without the chime it's not obvious when autopilot disengages. You don't notice the icon change from blue to gray in your peripheral vision.
I've had a few sound glitches since I've had the car (mostly Nav directions being truncated). But I did have one where the collision warning went off and did not stop. Kept going beep-beep-beep-beep at full volume until I manually rebooted the screen.
I had this happen on the freeway and had no idea til the car started drifting and I looked down and saw that the icon was gray. No brake pedal. Had my hand on the wheel and it was a curve with an exit. I think the car wanted to go toward the exit but my hand kept the wheel pointed in the lane. When the lane straightened I let go of the wheel and it started to drift.
Without the chime it's not obvious when autopilot disengages. You don't notice the icon change from blue to gray in your peripheral vision.
I've had a few sound glitches since I've had the car (mostly Nav directions being truncated). But I did have one where the collision warning went off and did not stop. Kept going beep-beep-beep-beep at full volume until I manually rebooted the screen.
I had a collision in a Tesla Model S in the last few weeks with the exact circumstances described by the driver in this incident. I thought I was paying attention, but perhaps didn't realize that I had somehow disabled TACC. I'm not sure how I did it, but I heard a collision warning and BAM! I was in the rear of the car in front of me at around 10 mph. My car registered a bunch of error codes for a few hours and then resumed normal functions. Not much damage luckily. Tesla is yet to send me the logs for exactly what happened.
I don't understand how anyone ends up in a situation where it's 'too late to stop'. When TACC doesn't react faster than I would, I take care of business myself. I don't sit around waiting to see if TACC is going to decide to brake.
Are you reading a book instead of watching the road?
Are you reading a book instead of watching the road?
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