Autopilot: Crashed at 40mph

[apacheguy]

Isn't this where the emergency braking feature is supposed to kick in? It should not matter whether or not autopilot is engaged.

I understand AEB can only reduce impact, but 40 mph? It seems like it should have kicked in sooner and then we'd be talking about a 10 mph collision.

 

[jeffro01]

AEB didn't kick in because the driver, according to what we know, already hit the breaks which disables AEB.

That being said, having driving a lot of miles under AP there have been a few times I didn't realize I had disengaged AP because my hand was on the wheel too firmly. Yeah I don't drive hands free 95%+ of the time...

I would agree that Tesla needs to do more with the UI to make it abundantly clear that AP is not engaged. I realize that doesn't fit my fanboy narrative but this is an area where Tesla can, and should, do better.

I also think AEB should be engaged at all times regardless of driver break input...

Jeff

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

AEB didn't kick in because the driver, according to what we know, already hit the breaks which disables AEB.

That being said, having driving a lot of miles under AP there have been a few times I didn't realize I had disengaged AP because my hand was on the wheel too firmly. Yeah I don't drive hands free 95%+ of the time...

I would agree that Tesla needs to do more with the UI to make it abundantly clear that AP is not engaged. I realize that doesn't fit my fanboy narrative but this is an area where Tesla can, and should, do better.

I also think AEB should be engaged at all times regardless of driver break input...

Jeff

Not braking will break your car.

 

[larmor]

AEB didn't kick in because the driver, according to what we know, already hit the breaks which disables AEB.

That being said, having driving a lot of miles under AP there have been a few times I didn't realize I had disengaged AP because my hand was on the wheel too firmly. Yeah I don't drive hands free 95%+ of the time...

I would agree that Tesla needs to do more with the UI to make it abundantly clear that AP is not engaged. I realize that doesn't fit my fanboy narrative but this is an area where Tesla can, and should, do better.

I also think AEB should be engaged at all times regardless of driver break input...

Jeff

Not sure why this would even be hard to implement, surely a few klocs of code...

 

[stopcrazypp]

I also think AEB should be engaged at all times regardless of driver break input...

I've seen a lot of people suggest this, but I don't think this is necessarily a good idea. When the driver brakes, that indicates they want to take control. If the AEBS engages at that time and overrides the driver's brake inputs, it may cause a rear end accident. That's why AEBS usually disengages when it detects driver input attempting to evade the accident. It really is intended for reducing the impact when the driver isn't doing anything to react.

 

[SDRick]

I've seen a lot of people suggest this, but I don't think this is necessarily a good idea. When the driver brakes, that indicates they want to take control. If the AEBS engages at that time and overrides the driver's brake inputs, it may cause a rear end accident. That's why AEBS usually disengages when it detects driver input attempting to evade the accident. It really is intended for reducing the impact when the driver isn't doing anything to react.

No matter how you slice it, whether the driver or nannies are engaged or not, these cars should be intelligent enough not to hit stationary objects in front of them. If the driver already has their foot on the brake and the car senses impact, the system should override and provide as much braking as necessary.

 

[stopcrazypp]

No matter how you slice it, whether the driver or nannies are engaged or not, these cars should be intelligent enough not to hit stationary objects in front of them. If the driver already has their foot on the brake and the car senses impact, the system should override and provide as much braking as necessary.

This is precisely the issue. The systems in cars today are not able to prevent 100% of accidents (or even 99.9%). A lot of this is not even intelligence, but rather the sensors are not able to reliably detect stationary objects, esp. at a distance. That's why all AEBS systems say they are designed to reduce impact, not prevent it.

People need to understand they are not driving fully autonomous cars that they can rely on as being a replacement for humans.

And again, you neglected to factor in rear end accidents. Current systems are not designed to detect the rear (they are all front based) and the car wouldn't know if you are in danger of a rear end accident. If it gets a false positive, then the system would have caused an accident, rather than just failing to prevent one. And having the AEBS always engaged in that situation means you are never given a chance to modulate your brake input.

 

[bhzmark]

Just so everyone is on the same page, the AEB system currently employed by Tesla is completely disabled as soon as you touch the brakes. That is documented in the release notes.

Automatic Emergency Braking Automatic Emergency Braking — a new Collision Avoidance Assist feature — is designed to automatically engage the brakes to reduce the impact of an unavoidable frontal collision. Automatic Emergency Braking will stop applying the brakes when you press the accelerator pedal, press the brake pedal, or sharply turn the steering wheel. Automatic Emergency Braking is enabled by default. You can temporarily disable this feature via the AUTOMATIC EMERGENCY BRAKING setting in Controls > Settings > Driver Assistance > COLLISION AVOIDANCE ASSIST. Automatic Emergency Braking will re-enable when you next drive. Note: Automatic Emergency Braking operates when you are driving at speeds between 5 mph (8 km/h) and 85 mph (140 km/h).


Tesla's system is missing a feature many other manufacturers have called dynamic braking support. THAT the the feature that will brake harder to avoid a collision when you have already applied the brakes manually, which several people here are assuming happened. She was completely on her own as soon as she tapped the brakes, no AEB functions anymore. I doubt many owners fully grasp that since it is a more common feature on other cars.

And, as I posted in the other thread, if you are interested, the NHTSA is currently proposing adding these systems to their 5 star rating tests: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-12-16/pdf/2015-31323.pdf Hopefully Teslas system will be more capable when this testing actually starts.

Tesla should absolutely employ dynamic braking assistance and brake more forceful when some people do not brake early and hard enough. That is a no brainer. Amazing that they don't do that.

 

[fiksegts]

I can say 100% AEB will apply the brakes while braking. I was braking and the car in front stopped very quick, the collision warning sound came and and the brakes went 100%, I could feel the brake pedal leave my foot and go further depressed to stop the car quicker....

Just so everyone is on the same page, the AEB system currently employed by Tesla is completely disabled as soon as you touch the brakes. That is documented in the release notes.

 

[jmsurpri]

I've had several instances where I'm driving with no one in front of me and the collision avoidance chimes go off for no reason. The display shows a red blinking car right in front of the S avatar. If the car slammed on the brakes every time that happened, there is a good chance I would've been rear ended.

I think the system as Tesla designed can have too many false positives, which must be why they disable it with any user input. I'm not sure how any system can avoid false positives without true autonomy.

 

[Racerx22b]

Ok, either I am misinformed or many of you people on here are. See below.

TACC is ALWAYS on when cruise control is on. There is no option for TACC on/off when using cruise control. I've seen comments in this thread that TACC was off. How is this possible? I'd actually like the option of using cruise control without TACC turned on at times so if this is possible please share with me how to do.

AP has NEVER turned off on it's own unless I touched the brake, moved the steering wheel, or the take control immediately warning sounded (or whatever it says when the red steering wheel image appears on screen). It just doesn't happen.

How in the heck are people not aware AP has disengaged (via accidentally tapping brake or steering wheel). The car will suddenly start drifting across the lane if you bump the steering wheel (because Cruise Control will remain on) or if you tap the brake regen braking will immediately kick in and you'll know AP and Cruise Control are now off. Right?? Am I missing something here?

Please do not make any chimes any louder for turning on/off AP. I find it too loud already and get comments when I'm engaging and disengaging from passengers already. Any louder would be obnoxious and annoying.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

I've had several instances where I'm driving with no one in front of me and the collision avoidance chimes go off for no reason. The display shows a red blinking car right in front of the S avatar. If the car slammed on the brakes every time that happened, there is a good chance I would've been rear ended.

I think the system as Tesla designed can have too many false positives, which must be why they disable it with any user input. I'm not sure how any system can avoid false positives without true autonomy.

I have noticed more false positives lately. But, to be clear, you are referring to collision warning, not AEB. The thresholds for false positives/negatives are different with these technologies. Front collision warning can have some false positives reducing the number of false negatives. However, AEB can't really have any false positives and therefore has to be very conservative about applying the brakes as a false positive AEB application could result in you getting rear-ended. This comes at the expense of potentially more false negatives or times when AEB should have braked, or braked harder, but didn't.

 

[mdevp]

Does anyone know the time between when she applied the brake till impact? Then we can surmise whether the AP/TACC wasn't going to work (if it was less than a second for eg). If it's say 5 seconds or more, it's easy to see she disabled everything prematurely by tapping the brake and glided into the accident.

 

[Tam]

...That's why all AEBS systems say they are designed to reduce impact, not prevent it...

That is true for Tesla's manual.

However, I am not sure that practice is welcome across the industry.

Some would design their system to avoid collision first, and if that fails in the same instance, it's also designed to soften the blow of collision.

An example is Nissan that larmor mentioned previously.

Tesla's way is: You just touch the brake? You are now on your own!

However, this Consumer Report picture is what the public understood: The car will stop on its own whether you apply the brake or not! You just touched the brake but didn't apply enough force? The car will further apply the force to bring the vehicle a stop.

 

[liuping]

How in the heck are people not aware AP has disengaged (via accidentally tapping brake or steering wheel). The car will suddenly start drifting across the lane if you bump the steering wheel (because Cruise Control will remain on) or if you tap the brake regen braking will immediately kick in and you'll know AP and Cruise Control are now off. Right?? Am I missing something here?

Please do not make any chimes any louder for turning on/off AP. I find it too loud already and get comments when I'm engaging and disengaging from passengers already. Any louder would be obnoxious and annoying.

If you bump the steering wheel or hold it a little too firmly, AP can disengage but TACC will stay on. The only indication is the a small change on the dash (which I'm usually not staring at) and a fairly faint chime (especially hard to hear on a noisy freeway).

I have noticed on several occasions that AP was no longer on, but since the road was straight and the car kept going straight, I don't know how long it was like that.

Instead of blasting the chime even louder, maybe they could vibrate the steering wheel or something when dropping out of AP due to steering wheel interactions (vs, braking or taping the button on the cruise stalk.

 

[BertL]

If you bump the steering wheel or hold it a little too firmly, AP can disengage but TACC will stay on. The only indication is the a small change on the dash (which I'm usually not staring at) and a fairly faint chime (especially hard to hear on a noisy freeway).

I have noticed on several occasions that AP was no longer on, but since the road was straight and the car kept going straight, I don't know how long it was like that.

Instead of blasting the chime even louder, maybe they could vibrate the steering wheel or something when dropping out of AP due to steering wheel interactions (vs, braking or taping the button on the cruise stalk.

I agree with you. For those of us also challenged with the high position of the 7.1 speed digits and even higher Autopilot/TACC indicators on the IC, they can be hidden by the steering wheel. I have bumped myself out of Autosteer several times, only to find a few seconds later while one hand is loose on the wheel (like I usually drive with Autostter on) that I'm drifting and Autosteer is off. I really would like an additional indicator of some sort when Autosteer pops into TACC, and as mentioned in other threads, the UI to move the indicators down so all of us could see what's going on.

 

[ICUDoc]

If you bump the steering wheel or hold it a little too firmly, AP can disengage but TACC will stay on. The only indication is the a small change on the dash (which I'm usually not staring at) and a fairly faint chime (especially hard to hear on a noisy freeway).

I have noticed on several occasions that AP was no longer on, but since the road was straight and the car kept going straight, I don't know how long it was like that.

Instead of blasting the chime even louder, maybe they could vibrate the steering wheel or something when dropping out of AP due to steering wheel interactions (vs, braking or taping the button on the cruise stalk.

I agree, Tesla needs to make it clearer when the car is on Autopilot and when it is not.
The "Rainbow Road" feature is actually quite good for this- maybe making the entire display backdrop glow a certain colour for Autopilot on and a different one for off would work? It needs to be VERY OBVIOUS.
Regards

 

[mdevp]

I'm curious why Tesla did not report the time the driver disabled AP/TACC until the point of impact. If Tesla said it was a long time then everyone would know the driver probably mistakenly tapped the brake by mistake causing the accident. Case closed.

 

[larmor]

I agree, Tesla needs to make it clearer when the car is on Autopilot and when it is not.
The "Rainbow Road" feature is actually quite good for this- maybe making the entire display backdrop glow a certain colour for Autopilot on and a different one for off would work? It needs to be VERY OBVIOUS.
Regards

Agreed, when i had a test drive, and the tester from the store demo'd AP, i had to peer over and really look hard at the instrument panel to see the AP indicator.
Also, not sure why AEB can't be worked into an algorithm, just like other cars...

 

[sorka]

Huh? When AP is enabled, the Tesla AP very much does, smoothly, brake to a complete stop. Your co worker is talking about something else. He is talking about emergency braking. His system is a last second thing that brakes hard to avoid a collision. For some reason, Tesla's emergency braking system does not usually stop in time, it just reduces impact. I do not know why. But Tesla AP will indeed come to a complete stop if needed.

You missed my point. My point is that AP shouldn't be required for the MS to come to a complete halt (when physics allow) using AEB alone. Lots of cars on the market with AEB, like my co-workers, stop on their own to avoid a crash. The MS should start auto braking sooner than it does and I know it knows because the collision warning fires LONG before it ever engages braking.