Autopilot: Crashed at 40mph

[sorka]

Tesla's system is missing a feature many other manufacturers have called dynamic braking support. THAT the the feature that will brake harder to avoid a collision when you have already applied the brakes manually, which several people here are assuming happened.

My 2003 Infiniti FX45 had this feature along with TACC. If it detected a collision(yes, the 2003 Infiniti had collision detection) it would pre-pressurize the braking system for you and apply the brakes much harder relative to your braking effort.

 

[sorka]

I've seen a lot of people suggest this, but I don't think this is necessarily a good idea. When the driver brakes, that indicates they want to take control. If the AEBS engages at that time and overrides the driver's brake inputs, it may cause a rear end accident. That's why AEBS usually disengages when it detects driver input attempting to evade the accident. It really is intended for reducing the impact when the driver isn't doing anything to react.

But lots of cars brake much harder relative to your braking input if it detects a collision so maybe those cars work differently but they're still doing *something* to slow the car down more than if there was no imminent collision detected.

 

[sorka]

And again, you neglected to factor in rear end accidents. Current systems are not designed to detect the rear (they are all front based) and the car wouldn't know if you are in danger of a rear end accident. If it gets a false positive, then the system would have caused an accident, rather than just failing to prevent one. And having the AEBS always engaged in that situation means you are never given a chance to modulate your brake input.

I would much rather be rear ended than hit the car in front of me. I the system needs to apply as much auto braking to prevent the MS from hitting the car in front of it and it results in being rear ended, then so be it.

 

[sorka]

I've had several instances where I'm driving with no one in front of me and the collision avoidance chimes go off for no reason. The display shows a red blinking car right in front of the S avatar. If the car slammed on the brakes every time that happened, there is a good chance I would've been rear ended.

I think the system as Tesla designed can have too many false positives, which must be why they disable it with any user input. I'm not sure how any system can avoid false positives without true autonomy.

That has never happened to me in the Tesla or any of the other cars I've had that have AEB.

 

[MP3Mike]

I understand AEB can only reduce impact, but 40 mph? It seems like it should have kicked in sooner and then we'd be talking about a 10 mph collision.

I seem to recall that the Tesla AEB system says that it will only reduce the impact of an unavoidable collision by 25 MPH. So if she was going 65 and did nothing, AEB would have slowed the vehicle to 40 MPH before releasing the brakes. So if it is applying the brakes at 100% at the last second necessary to reduce by 25 MPH then there is nothing more that can be done. It would have to start braking early.

What would be helpful to know is what were the settings she had on the car? Was TACC set to 1? Was the AEB warning set to late? If so, both of those things, in her control, contributed to causing the accident.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I've had several instances where I'm driving with no one in front of me and the collision avoidance chimes go off for no reason. The display shows a red blinking car right in front of the S avatar. If the car slammed on the brakes every time that happened, there is a good chance I would've been rear ended.

I think the system as Tesla designed can have too many false positives, which must be why they disable it with any user input. I'm not sure how any system can avoid false positives without true autonomy.

Have you contacted your service center or [email protected] about this. This sounds like a problem, maybe the camera? It's not normal.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I would much rather be rear ended than hit the car in front of me. I the system needs to apply as much auto braking to prevent the MS from hitting the car in front of it and it results in being rear ended, then so be it.

Doing that requires the system to be a lot more reliable than it is right now. Or you have stuff like this happening:
"In one incident, traveling at 40 miles (64 kilometers) per hour with no traffic directly ahead, the forward-collision avoidance system beeped three or four times. The brakes fired and stopped the car, resulting in another vehicle crashing into it from behind."
GM faces NHTSA probe over '14 Chevy Impala automatic brakes

I think it is "safer" to just make it more clear when the system is disengaged or until they upgrade the sensor suite (for example the 3 sensor system mentioned in the rumor).

 

[malcolm]

As others have suggested, there really should be a clearer Autopilot mode indication - a more noticeable sound or a more obvious change to the color and/or brightness of the Autopilot elements on the dash.

Or even a voice, saying "engaged" or "disengaged". They could get Patrick Stewart to do it.

Or maybe Liana Barrientos.

 

[GoTslaGo]

As others have suggested, there really should be a clearer Autopilot mode indication - a more noticeable sound or a more obvious change to the color and/or brightness of the Autopilot elements on the dash.

Or even a voice, saying "engaged" or "disengaged". They could get Patrick Stewart to do it.

Or maybe Liana Barrientos.

Or Elon Musk

 

[Blu Zap]

@malcolm Good suggestion about AP status indicator. There really isn't.
I have noticed in my own vehicle as things happen ahead, i will hover my foot above the brake pedal. Anticipating I need to slam it on in a moments notice. On a couple of occasions, the brake pedal has lifted up and hit my foot. That disables the AP and I am now on my own. One does not necessarily know that at the moment and can confuse what the car will do and what the driver is supposed to do.

 

[sorka]

Doing that requires the system to be a lot more reliable than it is right now.

Agreed, it's just a shame that it can't be as reliable for AEB as other cars on the market now or even as reliable as cars that had it 10+ years ago.

 

[Az_Rael]

I can say 100% AEB will apply the brakes while braking. I was braking and the car in front stopped very quick, the collision warning sound came and and the brakes went 100%, I could feel the brake pedal leave my foot and go further depressed to stop the car quicker....

It is possible they have updated the system since the original release notes were posted. Has anyone seen references to AEB updates in the newer release notes?

OR - its also possible the Model X system works differently if you were referring to your X? Anyone have the X release notes for AEB?


It is too bad its a system that is hard to test out to see how it works exactly under different situations.

 

[Blastphemy]

(from the thread I started inadvertently because I couldn't find this one...)

What makes no sense to me about Tesla's response (that the driver had pressed the brake, thereby disabling AutoSteer and Traffic-Aware Cruise Control), is that if the driver had actually done that, then the car would have been decelerating under heavy regen - not maintaining its speed or accelerating.

So how does one reconcile the two sides of this story? How does a driver disable AutoPilot by pressing the brake yet manage to continue accelerating into an accident? Because that's what it appears Tesla is saying happened.

Either the driver is telling the truth and AutoPilot caused the crash, or the driver is lying and she had her foot on the accelerator and caused the accident herself. Because the alternative scenario asserted by Tesla -- that she pressed and released the brake which caused the collision avoidance to turn off (which is not how I thought it worked - isn't it only disabled when the brake is being pressed?) and the car didn't engage the heavy regen to slow -- makes absolutely no sense to me.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what Tesla is arguing?

 

[ecarfan]

The driver could have lightly pressed the brake, just enough to turn off AP, not realized what she did, and then assumed that TACC would stop the car, not realizing it wouldn't fully stop until it was too late. Seems quite possible to me.

 

[Naonak]

(from the thread I started inadvertently because I couldn't find this one...)

What makes no sense to me about Tesla's response (that the driver had pressed the brake, thereby disabling AutoSteer and Traffic-Aware Cruise Control), is that if the driver had actually done that, then the car would have been decelerating under heavy regen - not maintaining its speed or accelerating.

So how does one reconcile the two sides of this story? How does a driver disable AutoPilot by pressing the brake yet manage to continue accelerating into an accident? Because that's what it appears Tesla is saying happened.

Either the driver is telling the truth and AutoPilot caused the crash, or the driver is lying and she had her foot on the accelerator and caused the accident herself. Because the alternative scenario asserted by Tesla -- that she pressed and released the brake which caused the collision avoidance to turn off (which is not how I thought it worked - isn't it only disabled when the brake is being pressed?) and the car didn't engage the heavy regen to slow -- makes absolutely no sense to me.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what Tesla is arguing?

How old is your Tesla? My older 2012 has the regen kick in immediately and fairly strongly. However, my 2015 has a gradual slope to full regen. they both require a different technique to drive regen efficiently. So if hers was a newer model, she wouldn't necessarily feel the regen kick in by the time things spiraled out of control.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

"... There was a decent amount of space so I figured that the car was going to brake as it is supposed to and didn't brake immediately."

The underlined portion makes this the driver's fault, period and end of story. The driver admits above that they were aware of the need to brake and willfully abdicated control to the vehicle, even though they should be in control of the vehicle at all times. Because the driver knowingly and willfully did NOT apply the brake, the driver is at fault. Never, ever assume the car is going to do something for you. If you encounter an emergency situation, for goodness sakes hit the brakes whether or not Autopilot is engaged!

 

[MP3Mike]

What makes no sense to me about Tesla's response (that the driver had pressed the brake, thereby disabling AutoSteer and Traffic-Aware Cruise Control), is that if the driver had actually done that, then the car would have been decelerating under heavy regen - not maintaining its speed or accelerating.

What if she had the regen set to low instead of standard?

 

[Tam]

...What makes no sense to me about Tesla's response (that the driver had pressed the brake, thereby disabling AutoSteer and Traffic-Aware Cruise Control).....

Tesla's response is a technical and legal one but is it a best one for everyone?

It is a fact from the manual that you can disengage Autopilot/Automatic Emergency Braking very easily just by what the owner admitted in this case: by applying the brake with any kind of force light, hard or a very quick tap.

That's how Tesla designed it and that's how it perfectly performed in this case: turn off ALL active accident avoidance system.

However, performance perfection according to its design in this case results in a car crash.

So the question is should Tesla change its design?

As discussed above, the other design is whether you apply the brake or not, the car would come to a halt by itself to avoid a crash.

And if you didn't apply the force enough on the brake pedal, it will further apply the force for you and bring it to a stop.

But that is not Tesla's way and since Tesla is still running beta, the best we can do is to learn how the system is designed and how it is thinking then comply to its wishes and don't get into trouble ourselves.

 

[Electroman]

The driver could have lightly pressed the brake, just enough to turn off AP

yes, this has happened to me, where initially when I had the car the first few days I got nervous and was hovering my leg above the brake in those tight situations, ready to slam just in case the car doesn't slow down or stop. And often without my knowledge out of sheer nervousness I had tapped the brakes and disengaged AP. That in turn would cause a panic in me and I would eventually stop the car slamming the brakes.

it took me a few iterations to realize that I am the one actually tapping the brakes and disengaging AP. Now that I know and have learnt how AP reacts I am fairly confident and know when it would stop and when it possibly might not.

After those initial days and once you get used to it, it is a pleasure to hit AP on the freeway and relax..

 

[GoTslaGo]

I once joked with my wife that there needs to be an extra dead foot rest for the right foot with AP. Initially kept hovering my right foot over everything, until I got used to AP. Once even got a cramp.

Thinking about it, I guess I do have one now, it's called the floor.