In one sense they are already minuscule and currently Tesla highway accidents are about 1/2 of the count for non-enhanced cars. I don't think they have to be minuscule in relation to driver controlled cars, just statistically safer. As Musk recently said, perhaps simply "twice as safe". Remember too, it's not Just Tesla that wants regulatory approval for autonomous cars, it's UPS, FedEx, GM, etc. There is a huge amount of money riding on this. UPS/FedEx no longer need drivers, that's got to be Billions of dollars right there alone. Most of the long haul stuff is all interstates.
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Autopilot disengagement, driving etc. out of main.
- Thread starter Nocturnal
- Start date
Funny you should mention that! Oh...first, 2 sec rule? I don't recall that. I think we had 1 car length for every 10 mph of travel. THAT I think it ridiculous at this point. It always was as following an 18 wheeler is way different than following a motorcyclist. What's interesting it the facet you bring up is the 'requirement' for roads, likely interstates that just as horses, pedestrians etc are banned, non-autonomous cars will also be banned. Think of a train, freight or otherwise. The last car is traveling the identical speed as the engine. It simply mechanically is guaranteed to be traveling the same speed as the engine whether braking or accelerating. You could pretty much do that now with TACC, or adaptive, braking. It's the following car that is the problem, not the lead car.If one could programmatically guarantee identical deceleration of/by the following car rear end collisions become a thing of the past.
I just got an opportunity for a good workout of 8.5. In some respects it was way better than predecessor releases. In other respects, it was marginally worse. However, just as in previous releases I knew where the edge cases were and, if not approaching one of them, I could adopt a far more relaxed posture. So, for the 2 hr drive all but maybe 10 minutes was 'relaxed attentiveness'. I think I'm coming up on 6 months of ownership. As I explained to my wife, the car had to, and has to, earn my trust. In those cases where I don't fully trust the car, I am, in contrast, at alert attentiveness. So the bottom line is, on whole, the drive is far more pleasant. That philosophy may, or may not, work for you and make you happier with the car. I think having a car, ultimately, running on natural gas (power company) is a good thing for the planet. It wasn't my highest concern. My highest concern was a car that promises to be a better driver than I am, if not out of the gate, within the life of the car, which may be the foreseeable future. My primary justification was future proofing mobility for both my wife and myself, now we're both retired.
Does anyone else feel that on autopilot the acceleration/deceleration of the car is way too much. When I drive normally I don't hit the gas or brake nearly as hard, and on Autopilot I find if someone comes into my lane in front of me the car just slams on the brake, making the occupants uncomfortable. Likewise, if a car leaves the lane in front of me, the car just jolts on the acceleration. It was fun when I first got the car, but I am normally gentle with my driving style and the sudden changes in acceleration/deceleration is uncomfortable for me. Is it just a setting on the Autopilot that I am missing here?
Also, NoA makes the problem above a lot worse. On NoA it changes lanes a lot, and every time it's 'change lane, blast on the gas, slow down, change lane, repeat'.
The discomfort me and my wife feel due to the acceleration/deceleration is the primary reason why I don't use NoA as often as I would like.
Also, NoA makes the problem above a lot worse. On NoA it changes lanes a lot, and every time it's 'change lane, blast on the gas, slow down, change lane, repeat'.
The discomfort me and my wife feel due to the acceleration/deceleration is the primary reason why I don't use NoA as often as I would like.
scottish9000
Member
teslcls
Member
I think most of the shortcomings of all AP functions are a result of insufficient anticipation. Either through limitations of sensors or programming, it's very difficult to foresee potholes, lane marking irregularities, potential idiot maneuvers by other drivers, etc. Until all those are controlled in some way, human intervention will be necessary. If lane restrictions for AI vehicles only can be created, or mandatory 2-way communication between cars, or a significant culture change in society occurs to reduce the urge to drive overly-aggressive, then much is possible, but until then, AI assisted human driving to reduce human error is the approach that will work best.
Jeff Hudson
Lovin the Tesla Life
V9.0 (2019.8.5 3aaa23d)
I do not have as large a choice to test NoA as the big city drivers but I did try it out with the automatic lane change enabled. On the only two intersecting interstate highways (I-65 and I-565 between Decatur and Huntsville, Alabama) I used for testing with automatic lane change enabled I give NoA a fail but there are reasons. Some of the reasons are initial personal inexperience, infrastructure lane markings but the worst reason was other drivers actions in conjunction with NoA maneuvers.
</diverge>In my opinion Full Self Driving (FSD) cannot reach a safe, viable implementation stage unless major improvements in infrastructure maintenance are implemented.</end diverge>
The attribute of NoA that consistently unnerved me the most was the mismatch between the Tesla's ability to detect other nearby traffic moving at different speeds and NoA's seemingly reluctance to initiate an automatic lane change with alacrity after initiating the turn signal. Several times as vehicles approached from behind in the adjacent lane at a higher speed NoA would begin signalling a lane change intention but not actually move into the adjacent lane until imo it became unsafe to do so (the approaching traffic was not slowing down) and consequently I chose to abandon the NoA attempt by cancelling and taking over manual driving. This happened 3 times and after each failure I got the impression either one or two or both things were going on with NoA that caused it to be deficient. The first was the ability of the vehicle to detect overtaking traffic with just ultrasonic sensors and side fender cameras (I am not clear if the rear camera is used by NoA) and the second impression I got was a possible lack of computing power to process what what was happening quickly enough. I sort of felt like I was being driven by a 15 year old brand new inexperienced driver. I now have a new respect for all Driver's Education teachers.
Another problem I have with NoA is the driver's ignorance about what NoA does with respect to picking a speed to exit/enter a highway. A tight radius exit from southbound I-65 onto eastbound I-565 had my Model 3 varying the speed and ping ponging all the way around the 270° maneuver. It felt a little sickening to let it do this but at least there was nobody behind me. Immediately beyond this maneuver the vehicle failed to change lanes due to a fairly well marked lane discontinuance which also involved a need to merge and was handled so poorly I had to take over manually.
I will end this missive with another unnerving NoA event that I hope Tesla pulls and watches. Note, this event problem was mostly due to poor lane markings but it did happen. If you want to look at this situation using Google Maps just know there has been some recent resurfacing work and the lane markings are currently the bare minimum for human drivers, i.e., skinny temporary white dashed lines. As NoA was merging from I-565 westbound to I-65 northbound it appeared to me it was having a problem detecting the proper lane path so much that I believe it did not know it had already merged into the right lane of I-65 northbound and kept moving to the left which would have been ok except for the fact there was a huge semi tractor trailer in the left lane that the Tesla did not appear to know anything about. I gave NoA every opportunity to detect it but in the end I had to take over because it was getting too close to the truck. By the way the NoA was trying to move left directly between the trailer wheels like in the Smokey and the Bandit movie. I have no idea what the side cameras were processing but I did not want to find out at 70 mph the hard way.
I do not have as large a choice to test NoA as the big city drivers but I did try it out with the automatic lane change enabled. On the only two intersecting interstate highways (I-65 and I-565 between Decatur and Huntsville, Alabama) I used for testing with automatic lane change enabled I give NoA a fail but there are reasons. Some of the reasons are initial personal inexperience, infrastructure lane markings but the worst reason was other drivers actions in conjunction with NoA maneuvers.
</diverge>In my opinion Full Self Driving (FSD) cannot reach a safe, viable implementation stage unless major improvements in infrastructure maintenance are implemented.</end diverge>
The attribute of NoA that consistently unnerved me the most was the mismatch between the Tesla's ability to detect other nearby traffic moving at different speeds and NoA's seemingly reluctance to initiate an automatic lane change with alacrity after initiating the turn signal. Several times as vehicles approached from behind in the adjacent lane at a higher speed NoA would begin signalling a lane change intention but not actually move into the adjacent lane until imo it became unsafe to do so (the approaching traffic was not slowing down) and consequently I chose to abandon the NoA attempt by cancelling and taking over manual driving. This happened 3 times and after each failure I got the impression either one or two or both things were going on with NoA that caused it to be deficient. The first was the ability of the vehicle to detect overtaking traffic with just ultrasonic sensors and side fender cameras (I am not clear if the rear camera is used by NoA) and the second impression I got was a possible lack of computing power to process what what was happening quickly enough. I sort of felt like I was being driven by a 15 year old brand new inexperienced driver. I now have a new respect for all Driver's Education teachers.
Another problem I have with NoA is the driver's ignorance about what NoA does with respect to picking a speed to exit/enter a highway. A tight radius exit from southbound I-65 onto eastbound I-565 had my Model 3 varying the speed and ping ponging all the way around the 270° maneuver. It felt a little sickening to let it do this but at least there was nobody behind me. Immediately beyond this maneuver the vehicle failed to change lanes due to a fairly well marked lane discontinuance which also involved a need to merge and was handled so poorly I had to take over manually.
I will end this missive with another unnerving NoA event that I hope Tesla pulls and watches. Note, this event problem was mostly due to poor lane markings but it did happen. If you want to look at this situation using Google Maps just know there has been some recent resurfacing work and the lane markings are currently the bare minimum for human drivers, i.e., skinny temporary white dashed lines. As NoA was merging from I-565 westbound to I-65 northbound it appeared to me it was having a problem detecting the proper lane path so much that I believe it did not know it had already merged into the right lane of I-65 northbound and kept moving to the left which would have been ok except for the fact there was a huge semi tractor trailer in the left lane that the Tesla did not appear to know anything about. I gave NoA every opportunity to detect it but in the end I had to take over because it was getting too close to the truck. By the way the NoA was trying to move left directly between the trailer wheels like in the Smokey and the Bandit movie. I have no idea what the side cameras were processing but I did not want to find out at 70 mph the hard way.
I was going to say that the rules say that you're supposed to indicate a desire to change lanes before actually doing it, which is the rule in Australia. So I went to the CA DMV web site to look up the actual rules here, and they don't even mention using the blinkers! No wonder no-one does.
Edit: I missed the single word "signal"... it does say to do it before changing lanes, but that's it.
California Driver Handbook - Traffic Lanes
Ha! Anyway, I agree with you, it delays too long after indicating.
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Hank42
Legacy Supporter
I have the same thoughts as you - if NoA can't merge (safely) 100% of the time, then FSD has no chance. Elon mentions HW v3 - that's nice and all, but processing power does not seem to be the issue here, at least form my experience with merge fails. Your point about matching traffic speed is spot on, as well as the car turning the blinker on, and maintaining speed and not merging for what seems like forever - causing the other drivers to lose patience and pass, causing a further delay in the lane change until I just grab the wheel and say "here, let me do it". I feel like I'm driving with my 90 yo mother. Which reminds me about the stupid turn signal staying on after I manually make a lane change - there should be some tactile feedback in the stalk to indicate a lane change vs a full on turn. But I digress. Ticobird, you pretty much nailed it.
Kilotango74
Active Member
While I agree that there is no 100% solution I think that the camera should be able to be utilized in this manner. If it sees my face is pointed straight ahead looking out the windshield it should be able to say reasonable that I am being attentive. If my head it tiled down for more than a few seconds I'm either asleep, staring at my shoes or texting. Will this be the case 100% of the time, no, but I think its a move in the right direction. Sure people will find workarounds, but that's the nature of people, there are always those who are willing to game the system, even if it puts others at risk. Now the real problem is the interior camera on the Model 3 probably wasn't intended to that and its questionable if that could be addressed through software. This of course doesn't help for those modes that lack an interior camera all together.
Zigzagmolly
Member
I agree. It makes me stay alert. With the latest software update they are much less often to a good interval. It allows me to clap to the awesome music coming from those 15 speakers! My hands are near the steering wheel all the time and my feet are close, just dancing a bit! I LOVE my car! Out of my 47 mile drive each way, I am on autopilot at least 40 miles each way. Stress reducing and my gas pedal knee pain is gone! No need for NoA for me. It would stress me out too much and I stay in the same lane almost all the way on I-84 and US 26 back and forth between Zigzag and Portland.
AwlBidnz
Old Guy to be driven around for yrs to come
I have never had a problem with the acceleration unless I forget to tell my passengers to lean back BUT, the brake slamming when something pops into the cars sight is VERY hard to accept..Even with the "proximity notice" options turned off. FYI, I'm may just be a fanboy but, the recent updates could be helping with this.
I took a 12 hour round trip this weekend. NAV on autopilot seems better overall, but several times it started to change lanes, then either hesitated or bailed, even with no cars anywhere close to me. I wonder if the small update I received last night fixed that.
It may be an unpopular opinion on these forums, but the way 1Q was handled is not something that smart money will easily forget. Those who got burned, and everyone who saw them get burned, will think long and hard about whether to trust Tesla again. The volatility is not helping either.
This isn’t the case for retail investors, who are beholden only to their own wallets. The TMC thesis of a disparity between perception and reality is the opportunity here.
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On a different topic, seeing smart summon collisions within days of v10 is worrisome. Let’s say the average car gets in a parking lot collision every 30 years. That’s 1 collision daily for every 10,000 cars. After v10 is fully deployed, there will be 100 or 200k cars with SS.
That implies one or two accidents daily might be ok, because owners do not use SS that often. If SS accidents are much higher, SS is causing accidents and Tesla will need to do something.
It has to be way more common than that.
There were probably over 100k summons just last weekend. Almost everyone who got it went out and tried it, with most doing multiple summons.
Maybe, but we really need data. Parking lot accidents are 1/5 of all accidents and have high pedestrian injury rates. People are really bad about paying attention in parking lots. I can't find a solid number but it's quoted as "tens of thousands annually".
Why hundreds are killed in crashes in parking lots and garages every year
Self reported poll so the real numbers are probably worse.
Parking Lot Safety
In an NSC public opinion poll, 66% of drivers nationwide said they would make phone calls while driving through parking lots. Respondents also said they would:
- Program GPS systems (63%)
- Text (56%)
- Use social media (52%)
- Send or receive emails (50%)
- Take photos or watch videos (49%)
During the hectic holiday season, drivers and pedestrians also are likely to be distracted by extensive to-do lists and are hurriedly trying to get from one place to another.
Summon wind up being like autopilot where it's objectively safer but people with an agenda or lack of brain cells will draw undue attention to them. We also need to see if it's other dumb people hitting the Tesla cars.
Edit, 50k crashes a year with 500 fatalities and 60k injuries.
I didn't try it. Don't feel the rush to add to the # of potential accidents. Not a big deal to walk a few steps to the car.
I think we need to take it slowly to give a chance to Tesla to address any issues before piling up 100s of accidents. That collision we saw - would be nice if Smart Summon honked preemptively.
Netflix/YouTube is really cool though. Somehow I am thinking it will have no less of an impact on observers.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Small accidents happen about once a year - or once 12k miles. A large % of them happen in the parking lots.
If SS is more cautious than avg humans - it will greatly reduce at fault accidents for owners.
BTW, in general newer cars should have fewer accidents. Backup camera and other sensors will greatly help. The accident we saw on twitter would not have happened if the other car had backup camera or other sensors.
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