Autopilot Functionality Suggestion

[beantownrich]

I have a love/hate relationship with Navigate on Autopilot. When it works it's impressive. When it doesn't, it's downright scary. It's exciting to see additional changes update after update such as allowing you to delay a lane change (hoping this means confirmationless changes coming soon!) But here's where it falls apart for me. The car sees the world like a robot, and tends to make binary choices about when to suggest a lane change, and then it takes too long to actually take the change. What it doesn't account for is human behavior.

What happens when you've begun a lane change and a car comes up behind you at 20 mph more than you're going? What happens suddenly all of the traffic around you is moving faster than your max set speed limit? What happens if a car is going to move into the lane it intends to go into? I hope as FSD becomes a reality and processing power increases that the vehicle will be able to have the ability to set a relative speed not to just the speed limit but to the flow of traffic.

Anyone else agree?

 

[Fair Verona]

Yes this is what scares me most about the prospect of using NoA. Driving on LA freeways where everyone drives erratically without signals there's no way I'd trust it to handle the craziness of other drivers here.

 

[ThrillHouseMD]

I have a love/hate relationship with Navigate on Autopilot. When it works it's impressive. When it doesn't, it's downright scary. It's exciting to see additional changes update after update such as allowing you to delay a lane change (hoping this means confirmationless changes coming soon!) But here's where it falls apart for me. The car sees the world like a robot, and tends to make binary choices about when to suggest a lane change, and then it takes too long to actually take the change. What it doesn't account for is human behavior.

What happens when you've begun a lane change and a car comes up behind you at 20 mph more than you're going? What happens suddenly all of the traffic around you is moving faster than your max set speed limit? What happens if a car is going to move into the lane it intends to go into? I hope as FSD becomes a reality and processing power increases that the vehicle will be able to have the ability to set a relative speed not to just the speed limit but to the flow of traffic.

Anyone else agree?

Agree. Too many times do I have to take over in fear of getting crushed by the impatient driver behind me trying to pass while Autopilot tries to Grandma it into the passing lane. I feel true FSD won't become a reality until all cars implement it and communicate. Computers are not even close to being able to autonomously predict (and therefore co-exist) with the imperfect and emotional reality of human driving.

 

[israndy]

I do wonder what Tesla is learning from the NoA as it stands now. I am extremely frustrated by its suggestion to change lanes because the lane I am in is going under my Set Speed, but when I do I am only passing the car at 1/2 MPH. I end up clogging the passing lane. It could decide to change lanes if I have a Set Speed that is much faster than the lane I am in. I do like that they added the Tap to Delay feature so I don't keep getting a request to change lanes if I know I am not going to do it.

I haven't tried NoA on 5.15 much yet, but the old software had a weird bug where after I passed a vehicle and there was a vehicle on my ass if I hit the turn signal it would brake before proceeding to change lanes. I have been trying to figure out what it is thinking and there is no rhyme or reason. If there is a car in the lane ahead of me or not, if I am close or far to the vehicle I passed, if there is a car on my ass or not.

It also will start lane changes and then start wobbling between the lanes, perhaps it is panicking about its perception of the road, but I look like an idiot to the drivers behind me. Sometimes it even cancels the lane change. The whole idea that it can start a lane change and then change its mind, that's something a human would never do, unless conditions change.

I don't know if others see it, but I often get issues with the Set Speed not tracking the Speed Limit. The highway changes to a rural road as we enter a town and the car is still going 75 MPH. I have to tap the Speed Limit sign on the display to get it coordinated. Then coming out of that town I am still going 35 MPH as cars stack up behind me. This is the minority of the time, usually it responds appropriately, but I rarely take a drive without seeing the issue when using AutoPilot.

-Randy

 

[ewoodrick]

Maybe Tesla needs to change the guidance from "Interstates only" to "Non-LA Interstates only"

Trust me guys, there are indeed other lanes on those roads that don't run at 75+. Just move a little more to the right and life should be better. But then again we all know that the only reason why the cars go 75+ is because the majority of the commute is 20-.

It's not going to be autopilot's job or design to drive the way that you do. It's going to be to drive in a cautious, safe manner, within the rules. If you got to go 90, you aren't going to be doing that on autopilot.

 

[beantownrich]

Maybe Tesla needs to change the guidance from "Interstates only" to "Non-LA Interstates only"

Trust me guys, there are indeed other lanes on those roads that don't run at 75+. Just move a little more to the right and life should be better. But then again we all know that the only reason why the cars go 75+ is because the majority of the commute is 20-.

It's not going to be autopilot's job or design to drive the way that you do. It's going to be to drive in a cautious, safe manner, within the rules. If you got to go 90, you aren't going to be doing that on autopilot.

Right, not like I do, that's fine, I get it. But certainly adapting to those around it is important. It's not about going 90, it's about not suggesting a lane change (even Right Lane to Middle Lane) when a car is bearing down on you and the Tesla assumes it should just go whatever the max speed is. I would never cut of a car to go 3 mph more in the next lane over and piss off the driver behind me. My car shouldn't either.

 

[haid]

Suggestion: context aware lane tracking

I can see an argument for robotically centered driving but it is not the way people drive. In a two lane undivided highway, we naturally put a little extra room near the traffic heading at you from the other direction. When we pass a truck, we naturally give the truck a little extra room. You could even argue the autopilot-fail of a stopped ambulance that protrudes 1/3 into a lane of traffic is an extreme example of how autopilot should be more sensitive to context. It should recognize the threat and give an extra buffer of space if that space is available (and maybe slow down if it is not).

Obviously this is a subtle change, but if Tesla wants drivers to feel comfortable, it should mimic human good drivers.

 

[Knightshade]

Suggestion: context aware lane tracking

I can see an argument for robotically centered driving but it is not the way people drive. In a two lane undivided highway, we naturally put a little extra room near the traffic heading at you from the other direction.

But AP is explicitly not intended for use anywhere there's oncoming traffic on an undivided highway.

S
When we pass a truck, we naturally give the truck a little extra room.

I agree many people "do" that but haven't seen any actual good reason for it other than habit...passing someone with 6 inches between you or 10 inches doesn't really make any difference....

And the car will already move on its own if a neighboring vehicle drifts toward you too much, usually quicker than the driver can do so....

 

[haid]

But AP is explicitly not intended for use anywhere there's oncoming traffic on an undivided highway.

According to wikipedia, "Autopilot for HW2 cars came in February 2017. It included adaptive cruise control, autosteer on divided highways, autosteer on 'local roads’ up to a speed of 35 mph or a specified number of mph over the local speed limit to a maximum of 45 mph."

I agree many people "do" that but haven't seen any actual good reason for it other than habit...passing someone with 6 inches between you or 10 inches doesn't really make any difference....

And the car will already move on its own if a neighboring vehicle drifts toward you too much, usually quicker than the driver can do so....

So... why re-train drivers to be more comfortable with tech, when you can change the tech?

The entire experience of using autopilot (at least for now) is one of knowing what is reasonable/unreasonable which equates to comfortable/uncomfortable.

 

[Knightshade]

According to wikipedia, "Autopilot for HW2 cars came in February 2017. It included adaptive cruise control, autosteer on divided highways, autosteer on 'local roads’ up to a speed of 35 mph or a specified number of mph over the local speed limit to a maximum of 45 mph."

And according to the actual Tesla owners manual, that's not quite what Tesla actually says about those features.

Autosteer is intended for use only by a fully attentive driver on freeways and highways where access is limited by entry and exit ramps.

The fact it "works" on undivided highways doesn't change the fact it's not the intended use of the product.

So... why re-train drivers to be more comfortable with tech, when you can change the tech?

Because if the tech is better than the human, why keep doing it the measurably inferior way?

TACC for example causes a lot fewer accidents than idiots driving without it who keep looking away at their phone in stop and go highway traffic, even if its behavior isn't exactly how a human would do things.

 

[israndy]

You are actually arguing that you should NOT apply an even amount of buffer because the robot is better. That seems counter-intuitive. Just because you are fast doesn't mean you shouldn't give yourself ALL available benefits.

If the robot is so good why doesn't it just drive DIRECTLY behind the car in front? Who cares what the humans feel about it? The car is good enough to drive that close. It's measurably inferior to leave a gap with the car in front of you.

Really, why is symmetrical lane placement superior? Are we posing for a photo?

-Randy

snark filter off

 

[Knightshade]

You are actually arguing that you should NOT apply an even amount of buffer because the robot is better. That seems counter-intuitive.

No, I'm saying there's no reason to drive outside the center line other than it "makes people feel better"

Just because you are fast doesn't mean you shouldn't give yourself ALL available benefits.

What benefit?

If there's only 2 lanes driving further from a car in the other means driving nearer the shoulder, and we've seen how well that works out when you come upon a car or other object stopped there.

If there's 3 and you're on either side, same issue- if you're in the center lane than moving "away" from one side lane means you've moved nearer the other... so...how's that better?

Center of the lane maximizes distance in all directions to any object or vehicle you might drive near/by/past

If the robot is so good why doesn't it just drive DIRECTLY behind the car in front?

Because the robot can't change the physics of stopping distance?

Also tailgating is illegal in most states.

Really, why is symmetrical lane placement superior?

Why isn't it?

You guys are the ones claiming you know better than Teslas engineers/programmers and the car is doing something incorrectly. Show your work.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Why isn't it?

You guys are the ones claiming you know better than Teslas engineers/programmers and the car is doing something incorrectly. Show your work.

Tesla engineers designed AP so it runs into the side of semi trucks, they’re not perfect. Anyway, AP gets dangerously close to vehicles in other lanes. There’s a huge difference between being 6 inches and 12 inches away. You’ve got twice as much time to react if the vehicle next to you starts moving over. There could be an imperfection in the road that causes the car to swerve a bit to the side. Centering the car between obstacles (while still staying in the lane) makes perfect sense to me.
And whose fault is it if AP makes a mistake while driving 6 inches from a semi truck trailer? There’s just not enough time to correct it when it’s driving so close.

 

[haid]

No, I'm saying there's no reason to drive outside the center line other than it "makes people feel better"
...
If there's 3 and you're on either side, same issue- if you're in the center lane than moving "away" from one side lane means you've moved nearer the other... so...how's that better?

Center of the lane maximizes distance in all directions to any object or vehicle you might drive near/by/past

Because the robot can't change the physics of stopping distance?

I'm not saying there are not situations where the dead center of the lane is not the best place to be. But there are situations when the center is not the safest place. Since computers are not controlling all cars/trucks on the road, there is uncertainty. Space in the lane represents the margin of safety.

You guys are the ones claiming you know better than Teslas engineers/programmers and the car is doing something incorrectly. Show your work.

Its not a question of Tesla engineers doing something incorrectly. It is a question of whether they are optimizing for the right things. They are training their neural nets to recognize objects. Then using those objects to program a course of action. Right now they are using a simple "stay in the center of the lane" strategy. Maybe a more complex strategy would be safer still and make us feel a little more at ease.

It is just an idea. Who knows if it is the most important thing to be working on. They are busy people.

 

[Brentt]

I think you have to look at where auto pilot was, and where it is today. The improvements have been slow, but steady. Eventually you will see an exponential increase in performance.