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Autopilot information from Tesla.com misleading
- Thread starter ishareit
- Start date
Other manufacturers deliver what they promise because, once you buy the car, that's it. No future improvements or features.
Right or wrong, well-intentioned or not, with OTA updates, Tesla can sell future features and deliver later. Other manufacturers can't do that yet.
Right or wrong, well-intentioned or not, with OTA updates, Tesla can sell future features and deliver later. Other manufacturers can't do that yet.
Yes, but how much delayed delivery is reasonable? Some seems to mean a year is ok. How about 2 years? 5 years?
timvracer
Member
I honestly don't believe anything any car manufacturer says in the marketing, I don't even read it. True for any car.
I simply took a Model S for a test drive, saw what it could do and not do, and was thrilled about the overall package and car, so i bought it. I have been pleasantly surprised with the upgrades and improving capability, and compared to all the other cars I test drove with some sort of similar capability, it is simply 100X better. (Audi's lane assist is useless)
Maybe because I am in tech, but I would have never believed that stuff anyways (and still think those EAP features are years away). And FSD?? lol, no way, that will be many years before it is even broadly possible for consumers, much less approved.
But that's the world we are in now -- don't believe marketing, talk to owners, do some research.
I simply took a Model S for a test drive, saw what it could do and not do, and was thrilled about the overall package and car, so i bought it. I have been pleasantly surprised with the upgrades and improving capability, and compared to all the other cars I test drove with some sort of similar capability, it is simply 100X better. (Audi's lane assist is useless)
Maybe because I am in tech, but I would have never believed that stuff anyways (and still think those EAP features are years away). And FSD?? lol, no way, that will be many years before it is even broadly possible for consumers, much less approved.
But that's the world we are in now -- don't believe marketing, talk to owners, do some research.
There is already a class-action lawsuit ongoing because of this fraud. And yes, it is fraud based on the legal definition. Tesla will be forced to settle, since really it is indefensible. At least now there is a mild disclaimer - when many of us purchased the car, this slowly evolving autopilot not even reaching parity with a 2014 car was never represented.
Those of you who think a few small words here and there on the website will save Tesla have never been in a courtroom. It's all about intent and representation. The intent of Tesla was to deceive us into thinking an AP2 car would be "enhanced" compared with the AP1 cars they had us test drive. This representation was made over and over again in their marketing materials, tweets, emails, orally, etc.
It's up to Tesla to prove their version that somehow they did not represent EAP as being superior to AP, which obviously is impossible since the "E" stands for "enhanced".
I like(d) Tesla too, but this is too much for a semi-fan like me, Tesla should do the right thing and pay up. If they won't do it voluntarily, the courts will force them to do this plus damages.
Those of you who think a few small words here and there on the website will save Tesla have never been in a courtroom. It's all about intent and representation. The intent of Tesla was to deceive us into thinking an AP2 car would be "enhanced" compared with the AP1 cars they had us test drive. This representation was made over and over again in their marketing materials, tweets, emails, orally, etc.
It's up to Tesla to prove their version that somehow they did not represent EAP as being superior to AP, which obviously is impossible since the "E" stands for "enhanced".
I like(d) Tesla too, but this is too much for a semi-fan like me, Tesla should do the right thing and pay up. If they won't do it voluntarily, the courts will force them to do this plus damages.
Nope... no one missed reading it. Apparently, some people aren't getting the point of this post... The point is to not advertise features that won't be coming for years... I can't tell my wife about all these cool features that the car can't do and I am sure you can't either, so what's the point in advertising them? I will give them the benefit if the features will be coming in few months.. but close to year and still no sign? I don't get it...
@ecarfan - I noticed that you have been a very active member of this forum and seems like also one of the early adopters of the technology. Thank you for that! I just want to clarify that I still like Tesla and I am sure that I will love the car with the current features that it has for years to come!
I think the current text of the design studio is quite misleading, perhaps even more so that back when it was still predicting some delivery window for features. The old version essentially said: You get nothing on delivery, but we will be adding features over time. The current version lists a whole bunch of features, but doesn't clearly mention that some are currently available and some are only "promised" (much less state which features are currently available). It's not clear whether that final sentence is referring to the listed features, or is stating that other features may be added later. This is unnecessarily (and intentionally) confusing.
@luckyj @escarfan et al: The EAP disclaimers you refer to that are currently on the website were added in early 2017. Prior to that Tesla falsely claimed that all the EAP features were only awaiting final validation, for expected delivery in December. Fourth quarter buyers didn't fail to heed the warnings; they weren't there.
Those buying EAP or FSD now have been warned, at least, though I don't believe the disclaimers convey the full truth: that these features may be years away, and may never materialize on the current hardware.
Those buying EAP or FSD now have been warned, at least, though I don't believe the disclaimers convey the full truth: that these features may be years away, and may never materialize on the current hardware.
clostridium
Member
That language doesn't cover things they've listed, it says that there may be more features. It does not excuse them listing features that don't exist - they are basically acting like those features are already introduced by advertising them.
If the paragraph said "in the future we are working to have ..." it would be fine. The section on FSD is appropriately annotated. It's the EAP section that continues to be misleading. They've improved the accuracy of their statements since they rolled out AP2 but not enough.
I'm a fan of tesla but this continued misleading messaging is inexcusable.
spc
Member
What a spot on thread...
Tesla is actually going backwards. Like no one noticed that V7 AP did a great job up to V8. It stopped at a bar and yet to recover from the drunkeness. Now we have AP2 with "E" and this so called FSD.
As said on this thread as real as BigFoot. maybe the E is really for "Expunged Features"
EAP2 is still just as drunk as AP1 V8 and it is loosing abilities it used to have, like recognizing the speed limit signs, and to top it off it not only lies to you it will put you in danger by slamming on the breaks to try to obey the 30MPH "default I was told" limit on a 65MPH roadway.
EAP2FSD... The only thing it can do as good as my AP1 is follow the car ahead on a stop and go traffic.
Beware. it is downright dangerous and unsafe.
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No other car will have features continuously added with over-the-air upgrades after purchase. any other car you buy, your car will never gain functionality as soon as you drive off the lot.
P100DHG.
Member
Frankly I'm exhausted by seeing these threads. Not because they don't have merit but the opposite, because they do. It's really absurd at this point. I have a December build 2016 P100D. For the love of god stop saying they didn't promise. They did! It was there on the website in black and white. They would deliver on AP2 end of December. Then there was the FSD tweet 3 to 6 months. Fine there is a delay, whatever. Just give a realistic timeline and stick to it.
"Subject to Regulatory approval". Really my auto wipers are subject to regulatory approval? Changing freeways is subject to regulatory approval? Smart summon, subject to regulatory approval? Exiting a freeway is subject to regulatory approval. Huh?
I'm a fanboy no doubt. I've dreamt of owning a Tesla since the Model S reveal. The second I could I bought one. Then two 4 months later I bought another. I love Tesla, their service is first class (in my experience, others might have other experiences). Their sales staff is great. I own zero Tesla stock and I am 100% just a huge fan but for crying out loud just deliver so I can stop seeing these threads! I'd like to see debates about how to make it better not why is nothing happening at all!
"Subject to Regulatory approval". Really my auto wipers are subject to regulatory approval? Changing freeways is subject to regulatory approval? Smart summon, subject to regulatory approval? Exiting a freeway is subject to regulatory approval. Huh?
I'm a fanboy no doubt. I've dreamt of owning a Tesla since the Model S reveal. The second I could I bought one. Then two 4 months later I bought another. I love Tesla, their service is first class (in my experience, others might have other experiences). Their sales staff is great. I own zero Tesla stock and I am 100% just a huge fan but for crying out loud just deliver so I can stop seeing these threads! I'd like to see debates about how to make it better not why is nothing happening at all!
I 100% agree. The worst part IMO though, is not only the dissonance between what is promised and what is there, but also the rate of progress communicated and actually happening.
All this talk about silky smooth, something special, neural nets and machine learning and we see close to no improvement. And if we look at what's promised for EAP and where we are now, there is a lot of stuff that needs to happen before we can even talk about FSD diverging from EAP.
And maybe I misinterpreted it, but I thought the "3-6 month" tweet meant that most of EAP functionality would be there in 3-6 months. Because how could FSD surpass EAP, if the car can't even exit a freeway, or select the best lane? What functionality could be FSD exclusive, without EAP being 100% ready?
clostridium
Member
A couple of observations that give me some hope:
- We (or at least I don't, maybe someone does) don't know if the EAP code is just a subset of the FSD code or if they are separate to some degree. If they have some degree of separation it would mean that progress or lack of progress on one doesn't necessarily mean as much for the other. I'm sure that even if they have separate code they have a series of similar challenges and could borrow from each other though.
- We don't know if they are releasing things incrementally as they improve things or if they are just releasing things that they may want to have a wider spread testing fleet to run. It's possible that they have advanced far more in EAP and/or FSD than what we are seeing.
- EAP is not currently using high resolution mapping data. Knowing what is coming more than radar and camera view ahead of the car will have to provide some positive benefits in performance. How much it will help is so far unclear.
- EAP is not currently leveraging all of the sensors (particularly the cameras). It seems that a subset of the issues people report would be improved by using more cameras. For example: the problems when dealing with bright sunlight seem like they'd be a bit better when the side cameras are brought into the process since they have different angles that naturally mitigate the impact of sun glare.
Craig
spc
Member
Oh! WOW!!! And because of that we need to accept marketing misformation and keep mouth shut. You must work for Tesla... so quit making excuses and release what was prommised.
Yeah, I agree on EAP. Pretty disappointing that they said EAP was expected to be rolled out in Dec 2016, which sort of implies the whole thing, but most of us got...nothing. Even today it's incomplete from the specifications they published.
FSD says exactly the same thing as when I ordered in November 2017. Which states "It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available". Though if you're selling something, I would imagine it's reasonable to assume within your lifetime, and certainly within the expected lifetime of the vehicle.
lets face it. AP2 wont EVER be fully functional or trustworthy. They are already saying new hw changes need to be made(2.5) and software can only do so much. Tesla uses sleazy tactics for sure to push sales like most car dealers do. Its a fact and doesnt matter if you drink the tesla koolaid or not its a fact. I will get flamed because "i dont own one" but my gf does and yea i do drive it sometimes and like the drive of course but 95k car(s60d) no way to me and she is seeing it too but she is all in financially so it is what it is.Yea now you can get the 75d with upgrades alot cheaper(of course) and with supercharging(she was told its going away forever on jan 15th so she bought into it eventhough i suggested she just wait till after 2017 summer-i am far more conservative financially with autos(yes i own mine and paid cash for it(only 10k but hey i never buy new cars)...
Anyhow she "can" afford it i guess and plans to drive it till the wheels fall off so she loves the ride and I do think its a neat car and the whole ev thing is great-and the tesla is the best looking ev on the road(why i dont understand as other car companies have far more years of design experience and could blow the doors off tesla if they wanted to).
The whole FSD/AP2 sell is silly to me to have in a car anyhow as anyone who thinks they can trust a computer to drive you around and trust your life and kids lives to it is mentally insane. In theory(like elon touts on and on about) its cool(like socialism and communism basic 101(IN THEORY ONLY OF COURSE) But in the real world its just unrealistic..With the amount of traffic growing in cities and the constant all day traffic rush hours its just not gonna happen this self driving fanatsy. Sure some of you with ap1 seems to say its amazing(ap1) now and can drive cross county with it on all the time(doubt it) but i bet its more stressfull siting there worried if it will go into another lane or brake for no reason or vear to the left...ectect....
Its a fantasy that elon sold you all to get more$$$$$$ for a car already overpriced and he knows it because the prices are dropping and resale prices are dropping as well.
Anyhow she "can" afford it i guess and plans to drive it till the wheels fall off so she loves the ride and I do think its a neat car and the whole ev thing is great-and the tesla is the best looking ev on the road(why i dont understand as other car companies have far more years of design experience and could blow the doors off tesla if they wanted to).
The whole FSD/AP2 sell is silly to me to have in a car anyhow as anyone who thinks they can trust a computer to drive you around and trust your life and kids lives to it is mentally insane. In theory(like elon touts on and on about) its cool(like socialism and communism basic 101(IN THEORY ONLY OF COURSE) But in the real world its just unrealistic..With the amount of traffic growing in cities and the constant all day traffic rush hours its just not gonna happen this self driving fanatsy. Sure some of you with ap1 seems to say its amazing(ap1) now and can drive cross county with it on all the time(doubt it) but i bet its more stressfull siting there worried if it will go into another lane or brake for no reason or vear to the left...ectect....
Its a fantasy that elon sold you all to get more$$$$$$ for a car already overpriced and he knows it because the prices are dropping and resale prices are dropping as well.
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
In the computer industry, vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled.
Vaporware is often announced months or years before its purported release, with few details about its development being released.
Software development is a complex process, and developers are often uncertain how long it will take to complete any given project. Fixing errors in software, for example, can make up a significant portion of its development time, and developers are motivated not to release software with errors because it could damage their reputation with customers. Large organizations seem to have more late projects than smaller ones, and may benefit from hiring individual programmers on contract to write software than using in-house development teams. Adding people to a late software project does not help; according to Brooks' Law, doing so increases the delay.
Announcing a product which does not exist to gain a competitive advantage is illegal via Section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, but few hardware or software developers have been found guilty of it. The section requires proof that the announcement is both provably false, and has actual or likely market impact.
Development hell
Vaporware is often announced months or years before its purported release, with few details about its development being released.
Software development is a complex process, and developers are often uncertain how long it will take to complete any given project. Fixing errors in software, for example, can make up a significant portion of its development time, and developers are motivated not to release software with errors because it could damage their reputation with customers. Large organizations seem to have more late projects than smaller ones, and may benefit from hiring individual programmers on contract to write software than using in-house development teams. Adding people to a late software project does not help; according to Brooks' Law, doing so increases the delay.
Announcing a product which does not exist to gain a competitive advantage is illegal via Section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, but few hardware or software developers have been found guilty of it. The section requires proof that the announcement is both provably false, and has actual or likely market impact.
Development hell
So I googled around the terms "alpha" and "beta" in software cycles. Is there a developer-community accepted definition for these?
JCB_Arizona
Member
Lowering the price would take the sting out. Maybe 3k for this EAP option. I paid $1200 for pure TACC on my 2014 explorer which works near flawlessly.
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