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Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
First, I'll just nitpick one thing: the MVPA. A line item on my MVPA specifically says "Tech Package with Autopilot." Nothing on my car can do can be defined as autopilot by any stretch of the definition. So if the MVPA is the final word, Tesla is in trouble because it definitely doesn't say anything about this feature not being available until later.

Your car has the Tech Package with Autopilot. A car without that package does not have TACC, which is in contrast to your car which does. So they have delivered you something called "Tech Package with Autopilot." So your real issue comes down to the definition of what delivery a vehicle with that package on it constitutes. Does it require the full set of features or does the fact that your car is eligible to receive those features when they are released meet the requirements of the description. I'd argue that a reasonable person would expect that the features would roll out over several months as Tesla had said. Which brings you right back to your opinion about how long is too long.

Next, I don't see any legal threat anywhere. Reserving the right to pursue legal action is hardly a threat. If Tesla has done no wrong here they'd have nothing to worry about from me anyway.

You don't have to bring it up multiple times (as you have) to reserve your right. The only reason to mention that you might need to take legal action at some unspecified point in the future if they don't get you the update is to use it as a weapon to encourage Tesla to do what you want them to do. No matter how many times you try to say otherwise you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You brought up the legal action, you keep bringing it up whenever this topic comes up. It has almost certainly altered the relationship you have with Tesla, assuming they've seen your comments about this. I'm assuming they have given the number of times and places you have posted your complaints.

Gestures of good will for people who missed autopilot hardware? How is this comparable? They got what they paid for. Those who got autopilot hardware early got what they paid for and more. P85D buyers like myself specifically bought in for autopilot and paid for this feature. This is apples to oranges.

See above, I believe you've received exactly what you've paid for. You're basically talking about a customer satisfaction issue. Which is exactly what the missing out on autopilot issue was.

I was one of those people who missed out on autopilot. Just like what you said before I felt that a gesture of gratitude would have eased the issue for me. And just like I'm telling you I was told by people on this forum that I wasn't entitled to anything. I still think Tesla could have handled that situation better. But I stopped expecting anything and worked to resolve what was making me unhappy on my own. Which meant trading my relatively new car and waiting on a new vehicle with Autopilot.

A large part of the reason I did this is because I expected at least a year of future updates with significant changes based on using those sensors. This was something that was clearly to me something that was going to be a long term evolution of features. Not something I expected to have soon after delivery.

For what it's worth with more time and reflection on the issue the posters telling me I wasn't entitled to anything were right.

As for extending the warranty on the autopilot steering hardware this is most certainly the right thing for them to do. The hardware is impossible to utilize through no fault of ours. What if I had 50,000 miles on my car, got the autopilot update at 51k miles, and the hardware for the feature I paid for at delivery doesn't work at that time even though I've never been able to use it since delivery? That's my fault and I have to pay? Come on now. (In this hypothetical I'd think Tesla would work with you, but at say 25,000 mile activation and 51,000 mile failure... a gamble.)

I agree Tesla would almost certainly just fix this under good will. Not doing so would look bad.

Would it be nice if they extended the warranty, absolutely. Will they, probably not.

Statements on the status of autopilot lane keeping should have been happening with or without me "crying" and would have gone a long way to build credibility, be it good or bad news.

Next gen seats is pretty much the same situation as this, also a paid line item on my MVPA. If Tesla had taken this long to deliver my next gen seats I would have an equal gripe with them about it. Fortunately my car was in fact delivered with front next gen seats, surprisingly, and I was updated constantly on the status of the rear seats. You won't find a single post anywhere where I'm "crying" about the rear seats, mainly due to the unsolicited and appreciated periodic status updates on the issue.

What sort of updates would you be happy with? Would them saying they're still working on it be sufficient? Or do they need to provide a time frame? If they provided a time frame and kept missing it would you still be happy with the updates? I'll bet that you would want a time frame and you'd want them to hit it. My experience with these sorts of software features though is that they're never on time. I'm sure Tesla realizes that as well. Which is why they've never provided updates. The fact that they did provide you updates on the next gen seats goes to my point that Tesla sees these issues differently.

All that said, regardless of the definition you posted it is pretty well known that using the term "crying" in reference to an adult is belittling and disrespectful. Grousing is generally for complaining with nothing at stake or very little at stake, if I recall correctly, which this certainly is not. (Just checked the definition to be sure, and I don't think anything about a $135k vehicle could really be considered "petty".)

I simply don't think you're being reasonable at all here. Like I said before I'd probably view your commentary very differently if this was the first time you were complaining. But you were actually complaining before I even got my car. If I recall correctly you were complaining that it wasn't out before the beginning of 2015.

Your complaints are gaining merit as time goes by, but the fact that you've been complaining from a very early state and making mention of legal action, colors my view of them. I don't use the terms I'm using to belittle or be disrespectful to you. I'm using them to describe how I feel about your opinions on this subject. I hope that you can separate the two. Like I said before, I do actually have a great deal of respect for you.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
Your car has the Tech Package with Autopilot. A car without that package does not have TACC, which is in contrast to your car which does. So they have delivered you something called "Tech Package with Autopilot." So your real issue comes down to the definition of what delivery a vehicle with that package on it constitutes. Does it require the full set of features or does the fact that your car is eligible to receive those features when they are released meet the requirements of the description. I'd argue that a reasonable person would expect that the features would roll out over several months as Tesla had said. Which brings you right back to your opinion about how long is too long.

You don't have to bring it up multiple times (as you have) to reserve your right. The only reason to mention that you might need to take legal action at some unspecified point in the future if they don't get you the update is to use it as a weapon to encourage Tesla to do what you want them to do. No matter how many times you try to say otherwise you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You brought up the legal action, you keep bringing it up whenever this topic comes up. It has almost certainly altered the relationship you have with Tesla, assuming they've seen your comments about this. I'm assuming they have given the number of times and places you have posted your complaints.



See above, I believe you've received exactly what you've paid for. You're basically talking about a customer satisfaction issue. Which is exactly what the missing out on autopilot issue was.

I was one of those people who missed out on autopilot. Just like what you said before I felt that a gesture of gratitude would have eased the issue for me. And just like I'm telling you I was told by people on this forum that I wasn't entitled to anything. I still think Tesla could have handled that situation better. But I stopped expecting anything and worked to resolve what was making me unhappy on my own. Which meant trading my relatively new car and waiting on a new vehicle with Autopilot.

A large part of the reason I did this is because I expected at least a year of future updates with significant changes based on using those sensors. This was something that was clearly to me something that was going to be a long term evolution of features. Not something I expected to have soon after delivery.

For what it's worth with more time and reflection on the issue the posters telling me I wasn't entitled to anything were right.



I agree Tesla would almost certainly just fix this under good will. Not doing so would look bad.

Would it be nice if they extended the warranty, absolutely. Will they, probably not.



What sort of updates would you be happy with? Would them saying they're still working on it be sufficient? Or do they need to provide a time frame? If they provided a time frame and kept missing it would you still be happy with the updates? I'll bet that you would want a time frame and you'd want them to hit it. My experience with these sorts of software features though is that they're never on time. I'm sure Tesla realizes that as well. Which is why they've never provided updates. The fact that they did provide you updates on the next gen seats goes to my point that Tesla sees these issues differently.



I simply don't think you're being reasonable at all here. Like I said before I'd probably view your commentary very differently if this was the first time you were complaining. But you were actually complaining before I even got my car. If I recall correctly you were complaining that it wasn't out before the beginning of 2015.

Your complaints are gaining merit as time goes by, but the fact that you've been complaining from a very early state and making mention of legal action, colors my view of them. I don't use the terms I'm using to belittle or be disrespectful to you. I'm using them to describe how I feel about your opinions on this subject. I hope that you can separate the two. Like I said before, I do actually have a great deal of respect for you.

TACC is not autopilot.

Mentioning legal action is just that. I only reiterate this when others, like yourself, blow it out proportion. You don't see me saying that I'm suing Tesla, nor that I currently have a reason or cause to do so. I even mentioned in the OP that I don't expect this thread to alter anything on the matter and I'm simply outlining how I'm proceeding with getting it resolved... so again, get your facts straight.

Autopilot vs non-autopilot cars is a non-issue entirely. No one who received a car without the hardware sensors paid to have those sensors and didn't get them. Complaints about buying a non-autopilot car around when autopilot was announced can be sent to /dev/null because no one complaining paid for the feature. There is a huge difference.

I agree with your comments above on the warranty issue.

Updates I would be happy with do not necessarily have to include ETAs. "We're on schedule and are testing XXX with autopilot." "We're slightly behind schedule and are currently working on XXX." Etc would have been fine. For the record, the same people who provided updates on the rear seats said they would have offered the same regarding autopilot if they had the information.

I don't recall seriously complaining that I didn't have auto steering immediately after getting my car. I fully expected it to take some reasonable amount of time regardless of Tesla's statements to the contrary. This is my first serious complaint about the time table since I specifically noted on my calendar when I would consider the specified time table unreasonable. That said, some Tesla employees were optimistic that auto steering would be available Q1'15. The pessimists were very confident Q2'15. No one at Tesla that I've spoken to expected auto steering to not be available at this time... and these are recent interpretations of the given data from Tesla employees, not just myself. Every single person I've spoken to at Tesla so far is surprised that the feature is not yet available today. If that is their reaction and interpretation I don't think mine is unreasonable at all.
 

Canuck

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2013
6,125
5,469
South Surrey, BC
Essentially, if the car doesn't do a main thing I purchased it for (autopilot for my thousands of miles of summer driving),then, as mentioned previously, I'll most likely consider legal recourse.

I think people are reading too much into the mention of legal action. It's a last resort and a right I'm not giving up, not something I'm actively pursuing.

Then why even mention it? I don't get posting on a public forum about "considering" legal recourse in the future. That makes no sense to me since you are already considering it by just mentioning it. Either sue or don't, but if you do, don't post anything at all about your lawsuit on website forums or anywhere else. There's a very good reason your lawyer will tell you to never discuss your case with anyone but him/her.

Moreover, someone else who threatened to sue Tesla had his Model X order cancelled. I would think more will be added to that list.

I doubt you will find a lawyer who will act on contingency, and you better have deep pockets if you sue since in addition to paying your own lawyer, my prediction is that you will also be paying Tesla's costs. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate and understand your concerns, but I've also seen people pick legal battles who really regret later having done so.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA



Then why even mention it? I don't get posting on a public forum about "considering" legal recourse in the future. That makes no sense to me since you are already considering it by just mentioning it. Either sue or don't, but if you do, don't post anything at all about your lawsuit on website forums or anywhere else. There's a very good reason your lawyer will tell you to never discuss your case with anyone but him/her.

Moreover, someone else who threatened to sue Tesla had his Model X order cancelled. I would think more will be added to that list.

I doubt you will find a lawyer who will act on contingency, and you better have deep pockets if you sue since in addition to paying your own lawyer, my prediction is that you will also be paying Tesla's costs. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate and understand your concerns, but I've also seen people pick legal battles who really regret later having done so.

Fortunately I haven't "picked a legal battle." I mentioned it as exactly what i mentioned it as: a last resort.

If it came to it I would consider it more in depth at that time, consult council, etc. If every attorney I consulted with was pessimistic and it would be futile then obviously I'm not stupid enough to fruitlessly take on a multi-billion dollar corporation. (I doubt this would be the case by the time it came to it, and I hope to never have to find out)

I mentioned it at all out of completeness in the outline of my thought process on the matter as i described as the purpose of the post in the first place.

Everyone is reading far too much into this as if I've lawyered up and am going after Tesla which simply is not the case and is not at all desired.

As mentioned up thread, my actions are nothing like the person supposedly removed from the Model X reservation list. I've thus far put out a few emails expressing my disappointment regarding the lane keeping feature in detail in a professional and respectful manner... and made this thread expressing the same.

So far based on the responses I've received so far there are less Tesla defenders at Tesla than there are on this thread...
 
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breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
TACC is not autopilot.

It is a part of the Autopilot convenience features included in the Tech package with Autopilot. If you didn't get that package you don't have that feature. I don't see how you dispute that.

Mentioning legal action is just that. I only reiterate this when others, like yourself, blow it out proportion. You don't see me saying that I'm suing Tesla, nor that I currently have a reason or cause to do so. I even mentioned in the OP that I don't expect this thread to alter anything on the matter and I'm simply outlining how I'm proceeding with getting it resolved... so again, get your facts straight.

How am I blowing it out of proportion? I said that I didn't take your threat seriously. I fully realize you're not actually taking legal action right now.

What I have done is point out that even bringing up the topic changes how Tesla is going to handle you. If I were them I wouldn't respond to you on this issue whatsoever based on your public comments. You have set yourself up for not getting a response.

Updates I would be happy with do not necessarily have to include ETAs. "We're on schedule and are testing XXX with autopilot." "We're slightly behind schedule and are currently working on XXX." Etc would have been fine. For the record, the same people who provided updates on the rear seats said they would have offered the same regarding autopilot if they had the information.

Just going to point out how you reacted to them missing the deadline on torque sleep:

If they didn't have it pretty much ready to go they shouldn't have given a date.


Tick tock. Tick tock.

T-85 hours until promise is broken. :frown:


I don't recall seriously complaining that I didn't have auto steering immediately after getting my car. I fully expected it to take some reasonable amount of time regardless of Tesla's statements to the contrary. This is my first serious complaint about the time table since I specifically noted on my calendar when I would consider the specified time table unreasonable. That said, some Tesla employees were optimistic that auto steering would be available Q1'15. The pessimists were very confident Q2'15. No one at Tesla that I've spoken to expected auto steering to not be available at this time... and these are recent interpretations of the given data from Tesla employees, not just myself. Every single person I've spoken to at Tesla so far is surprised that the feature is not yet available today. If that is their reaction and interpretation I don't think mine is unreasonable at all.

Also from the same thread as I quoted above:

And here I was hoping for autopilot sometime this quarter...

Won't arrive 2015. When Tesla says "several months", that means over a year.

Yep, if that's the case I will pursue legal remedies as well as likely no longer be a Model S owner. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

Considering autopilot was a huge reason for my jump to the P85D (taking a decent hit on the P85 trade in the process), not having autopilot available soon is not going to be acceptable.

That was on January 29th, 2105. I'm not sure if that was the first complaint, I didn't spend too much time searching. So if it was my apologies for thinking you had been complaining earlier. But that's still damn early to be complaining. You'd had the car for roughly 5 weeks about something that was listed as being "several months" out.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
It is a part of the Autopilot convenience features included in the Tech package with Autopilot. If you didn't get that package you don't have that feature. I don't see how you dispute that.



How am I blowing it out of proportion? I said that I didn't take your threat seriously. I fully realize you're not actually taking legal action right now.

What I have done is point out that even bringing up the topic changes how Tesla is going to handle you. If I were them I wouldn't respond to you on this issue whatsoever based on your public comments. You have set yourself up for not getting a response.



Just going to point out how you reacted to them missing the deadline on torque sleep:









Also from the same thread as I quoted above:







That was on January 29th, 2105. I'm not sure if that was the first complaint, I didn't spend too much time searching. So if it was my apologies for thinking you had been complaining earlier. But that's still damn early to be complaining. You'd had the car for roughly 5 weeks about something that was listed as being "several months" out.

Wow you're incredible. Quoting me out of context on a completely different issue. *claps*

For the record, if you read the original posts in context it is quite obvious that my pun about autopilot being released in Q1 was just that. In response to the mention that it wouldn't arrive in 2015 I responded with exactly how I would be responding if that were in fact the case, exactly as I have here. I didn't bring that up out of no where, it was a response to someone's response to my joke about autopilot. (Feel free to check out the original thread here: Will Tesla make the promise for torque sleep? (P85D)). In context, I stand by my statements there.

I'll again point out that TACC does not meet the definition of autopilot, so I do not have a car with autopilot capability because it has TACC. The autopilot package is not fully delivered. Tesla even conceded this in their shareholder report as unrecognized earnings related to it.
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
Wow you're incredible. Quoting me out of context on a completely different issue. *claps*

For the record, if you read the original posts in context it is quite obvious that my pun about autopilot being released in Q1 was just that. In response to the mention that it wouldn't arrive in 2015 I responded with exactly how I would be responding if that were in fact the case, exactly as I have here. I didn't bring that up out of no where, it was a response to someone's response to my joke about autopilot. (Feel free to check out the original thread here: Will Tesla make the promise for torque sleep? (P85D)). In context, I stand by my statements there.

I did not quote you out of context. I provided the context, I said it was on a thread about the torque sleep update. I provided the quote of the mention autopilot wouldn't be coming in 2015. All of the quotes were linked to the original posts.

I'll have to take your word that you were joking about Q1'15.

But I most certainly did not quote you out of context. The only thing I could have done to quote you more in context was quote every post on the thread here.


I'll again point out that TACC does not meet the definition of autopilot, so I do not have a car with autopilot capability because it has TACC. The autopilot package is not fully delivered. Tesla even conceded this in their shareholder report as unrecognized earnings related to it.

I never said it was fully delivered. I do think you got what your ordered. The auto-steering was always coming in a future software update. We disagree about if the timing of the delivery of that update constitutes a breech of the MVPA. I guess we'll just have to disagree.

I'm done responding to this thread. I'm sure you'll twist what I said again.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
I did not quote you out of context. I provided the context, I said it was on a thread about the torque sleep update. I provided the quote of the mention autopilot wouldn't be coming in 2015. All of the quotes were linked to the original posts.

I'll have to take your word that you were joking about Q1'15.

But I most certainly did not quote you out of context. The only thing I could have done to quote you more in context was quote every post on the thread here.




I never said it was fully delivered. I do think you got what your ordered. The auto-steering was always coming in a future software update. We disagree about if the timing of the delivery of that update constitutes a breech of the MVPA. I guess we'll just have to disagree.

I'm done responding to this thread. I'm sure you'll twist what I said again.

I'm not twisting anything. I've simply been explaining why some of what you're saying is incorrect.

The quotes were out of context by breaking up single quotes, mainly. Off topic because it's torque sleep, but OK. More out of context because basically everything there, except my "Tick tock" joke, is a reply to something else. But, whatever works. I linked to the original thread which will clear up any confusion. (I know the quotes link back, but not everyone does.)

I'm glad we've at least boiled off most of your argument and can settle on a disagreement regarding the MVPA. That said, when you can find a definition of "with Autopilot" that fits what my car can currently do then I will accept your position on the MVPA interpretation. Fortunately, for me, you will find no such definition.

- - - Updated - - -

The "several months" clock started on 10/10/14, when Tesla gave 1000's a test ride at Hawthorne.

This was Tesla's staff's (everyone I had spoken with) interpretation of the timeline at the time as well, for the record.
 
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wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
I was killing some time going through the thread about the torque sleep/efficiency issue thread breser reminded me of. I think I'll quote myself here because I sum up the differences between those issues pretty well. After another user expressed concern about letting frustration over autopilot get out of control I replied:

Well, it is just the principal behind paying for a product and not actually receiving that product. In this case both the advertised enhanced efficiency of the dual motor setup and the autopilot software. The former is somewhat inexcusable as they should have had this done before advertising the claimed efficiency. The latter was noted as "several months" away, so I'm willing to give them that time to complete autopilot before I just eventually have to logically declare that I've become a victim of false advertising and take action appropriately.

Releasing the torque sleep update within the time frame they specified (end of January) will go a long way to restoring some faith here.

Sounds like I was being pretty reasonable to me.

To Tesla's credit, the torque sleep update was in fact only a few days beyond their own promised deadline and did restore some faith in their ability to at least come close to making their deadlines at the time.
 

darthy001

Love my car, hope Tesla can get as great!
Oct 29, 2012
726
55
Bærum, Norway
Just wanted to chime in here as one of the early P85D-owners with a lot of the same "issues" as wk057.

The missing auto-pilot features aren't critical to me, but it is getting to be quite embarrassing to explain to co-workers, family and friends that no it still doesn't do what the videos showed in October.. And that people still excuse Teslas communication around these matters is incredible to me. They have had so many fiascoes here and never seem to learn. As wk057 mentions I would be happy with some status updates at least, but as usual we hear nothing.

Add that to the list of other blunders in regards to communication and delivery and the only reason I am keeping the car now is the horrible turn in exchange rate for the NOK against the USD since I ordered the car... Price has gone up at least 15% last time I checked:(

Summed up my experience so far:

- Car doesn't have close to the horsepower claimed at launch, and I ordered within hours of the design studio being ready in Norway..
- Torque sleep not as effective as originally claimed.
- Car delivered without nextgen seats. I got this info 2minutes before taking delivery of the car which I had already paid for. I now have nextgen front seats but still waiting on the rear-seats.
- 0-100 times measured with some strange method of "1ft roll-out" that has no meaning outside of the US and is simply misrepresentation of the facts.
- Automatic charge port door not delivered in Europe. Was never mentioned in any marketing material or prior to delivery.
- Promised "performance update at high speed" from design-studio has not been delivered.
- Autopilot-features not even close to being delivered.

I don't think wk057 is being unreasonable at all....
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,677
5,693
Merced, CA
Just wanted to chime in here as one of the early P85D-owners with a lot of the same "issues" as wk057.

The missing auto-pilot features aren't critical to me, but it is getting to be quite embarrassing to explain to co-workers, family and friends that no it still doesn't do what the videos showed in October.. And that people still excuse Teslas communication around these matters is incredible to me. They have had so many fiascoes here and never seem to learn. As wk057 mentions I would be happy with some status updates at least, but as usual we hear nothing.

Add that to the list of other blunders in regards to communication and delivery and the only reason I am keeping the car now is the horrible turn in exchange rate for the NOK against the USD since I ordered the car... Price has gone up at least 15% last time I checked:(

Summed up my experience so far:

- Car doesn't have close to the horsepower claimed at launch, and I ordered within hours of the design studio being ready in Norway..
- Torque sleep not as effective as originally claimed.
- Car delivered without nextgen seats. I got this info 2minutes before taking delivery of the car which I had already paid for. I now have nextgen front seats but still waiting on the rear-seats.
- 0-100 times measured with some strange method of "1ft roll-out" that has no meaning outside of the US and is simply misrepresentation of the facts.
- Automatic charge port door not delivered in Europe. Was never mentioned in any marketing material or prior to delivery.
- Promised "performance update at high speed" from design-studio has not been delivered.
- Autopilot-features not even close to being delivered.

I don't think wk057 is being unreasonable at all....

It's pretty standard for auto manufactures to quote nearly unachievable 0-60 or 0-62 times. In fact, I've never ever once been able to achieve the 0-60 acceleration claimed by the maker of any car I've owned *except* the P85D. Not only can I achieve it but I can achieve it almost every time.

The 1 ft rollout is the standard in the US. Even if it isn't the standard in Europe, I'll bet the P85D comes closer to meeting the those claims than any other car.

I've also been able to achieve better than the rated mileage most of the time. However, I'm basing that on 253 reported by the EPA which is the number I go by regardless of what the manufacturer claims.

That said, I'm with you on pretty much everything else chief one being the vastly overrated hp rating. It's NOT standard for manufacturers to overstate hp ratings. It rarely does and when it does happen, there's usually a consequence. It's far more common for manufacturers to understate the power which they did initially for the P85 by a significant amount which is why it's even more shocking they were so wrong in the other direction with the P85D.
 

darthy001

Love my car, hope Tesla can get as great!
Oct 29, 2012
726
55
Bærum, Norway
It's pretty standard for auto manufactures to quote nearly unachievable 0-60 or 0-62 times. In fact, I've never ever once been able to achieve the 0-60 acceleration claimed by the maker of any car I've owned *except* the P85D. Not only can I achieve it but I can achieve it almost every time.

The 1 ft rollout is the standard in the US. Even if it isn't the standard in Europe, I'll bet the P85D comes closer to meeting the those claims than any other car.

I've also been able to achieve better than the rated mileage most of the time. However, I'm basing that on 253 reported by the EPA which is the number I go by regardless of what the manufacturer claims.

That said, I'm with you on pretty much everything else chief one being the vastly overrated hp rating. It's NOT standard for manufacturers to overstate hp ratings. It rarely does and when it does happen, there's usually a consequence. It's far more common for manufacturers to understate the power which they did initially for the P85 by a significant amount which is why it's even more shocking they were so wrong in the other direction with the P85D.
Ref 0-100 times its just a matter of adding the text "with 1ft roll-out" and it would be fine. Mainly getting the correct facts straight in the first place is what I am a tiny bit annoyed about. I am well aware that normal cars usually have a hard time getting close to factory-specs for this.. But you are very on point that up until the P85D Tesla overdelivered on most stats.. Then they turned around and did the complete opposite with the P85D :( Anyway the 0-100 issue is far from a showstopper. The cars is brutal and still loads of fun of the line. I just feel a tiny tiny bit cheated.

And yes I'll add the usual disclaimer that I totally love the car now that I finally got the nextgen seats in front. But had I ordered today I would have gone for a 85D or maybe even a 70D. In my world the price-difference towards the P85D isn't close to worth it now knowing the performance of the 85D.

Back on topic: this whole non-communication strategy from Tesla when getting behind schedule like this is just ridiculous to me.. A little "we are working out the final details and expect a release in august" would be fine to me. At least much better than only being forced to admit some minor details during investor-calls etc.
 

PhinFL

Member
May 20, 2015
59
0
Palm Beach County, FL
Class action lawsuit? WTF??? Why is it in America when people don't get their way as they perceive it to be, they immediately jump into litigation? Furthermore, buying a car because of a "promised" feature with no set launch date and then bitching about it after the fact is just dumb. Totally dumb. Tesla sells the car to you when you buy it based on what's available at that time. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. If you truly threw away money to upgrade your car based on a feature that didn't exist yet then the only one you can blame is yourself.

I really don't get it, what exactly are you upset about? Tesla never promised a date, just gave an extremely vague timeline. If you took that as literal then I have a bridge to sell you.

Jeff

Agreed. +1
 

Macgaver

Member
Dec 6, 2014
281
61
Montreal, Canada
Trying to stay positive... "Several months" have to be less than a year. So the conclusion is that you will have it perfect within the next ~2 months

My guess when the X arrive
 

MartinAustin

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
2,690
11,105
Austin, Texas USA
Hi wk057 I've appreciated all the work you've put in on (and behind) your many posts in the past, and I sympathize with you on this one.

Tesla have shown a pretty dreadful record of shipping software in a timely manner. In the area of "research" where you're creating something that has never existed before, it's incredibly difficult to predict when a project will be finished. Tesla simply appears to be a typical victim of this problem. One of the ways to solve it is to never pre-announce your products until they're ready to ship! Obviously Elon doesn't want to do it that way. I've seen many developers garner lots of attention and well-wishings after presentations, only to be floundering a year later having not yet shipped what they'd presented.

This doesn't make it any easier to wait. My car doesn't have autopilot hardware, but waiting for 6.2 was just as gut-wrenching as what you're going through. I sure hope you don't end up filing suit.

That's about all the positivity I can provide! Because today I noticed that "Autopilot" (that feature Tesla has been so proud of) is gone from the main page of Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles. It now says "with All-Wheel-Drive." Is this a new change?

TM_AWD.png


Elon recently said it had been a pity that they didn't emphasize AWD more when they launched the "D." But... naysayers could jump on this revision to indicate that they wish to downplay demand for Autopilot, because perhaps it isn't coming for a while longer.
 

RMG007

Member
Mar 8, 2015
116
35
San Diego
Ying and Yang. Tell us something (even though they really don't have anything concrete to say) and then we'll be unhappy when it doesn't happen within a certain timeframe. Tell us nothing (and maybe pleasantly surprise us) and then we'll be unhappy because Tesla is not ommunicating. I certainly empathize with OP and have been frustrated with Tesla over certain things, but at the end of the day it's an automobile designed to get us from point A to point B. Tesla is far from perfect, bit it's still pretty damn good. Go do an insane launch, enjoy and grin.
 

Stoneymonster

Active Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,787
1,064
Aptos, Ca
I'm disappointed auto steering isn't available by now as well, my feeling is if we're at 6 months plus without it since delivery, and 10 months since annoucement, there are some major issues, and the cars will might have to go in for additional hardware..

the blindspot monitoring is useless, 1/2 the time there is a car right in my blind spot and the system isn't detecting the car, if auto steer is heavily dependent on these sensors, I think there is a real concern...

If that's the case, it'll never happen. Look at how long the battery shields took to be deployed, and that was a dead simple modification. With 15k+ cars on the road with autopilot, it would take a year (or more) for service to work through that.
 
Last edited:

jbcarioca

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2015
5,106
23,415
It seems to me that most of us are in agreement about the facts but disagree about the culpability of Tesla/Elon in over-promising. So far it seems to me that almost everything he has promised has eventually been delivered.

Frankly the promises made months or years before delivery are really lousy business practice at the minimum, a position with which i suspect we all agree.

A major difference among us is that although we almost all seem to be in love (maybe lust) with our cars some of us give high credit for what has been delivered and suspend disbelief on everything else. Not coincidently the TSLA price obviously reflects a state of suspension of disbelief too, when we seem to have entered a religious state in which we take future accomplishments on faith because of past miracles. I only slightly jest, since Space X and Tesla have both accomplished many things that were thought to be impossible.

If the previous paragraph is valid, should we then accept ridiculously over-optimistic promises because we think they'll happen sometime? For me: NO.

We are now users of delivered product with warranties, service and use expectations. We are now no longer alpha testers or even beta testers. it is even questionable whether we are early adopters (depending on our country, of course). Should we now be entitled to a mature responsible staging of promises? I say yes! I hope Elon still tells us long in advance about planned improvements, but he should learn not to promise things for tomorrow when it ain't gonna happen! He too needs to mature.

Would I sue? Not a chance! I'm in love, remember, so I'd never want the object of my deep affection to have her affections be alienated.
 

qwk

P130DL
Dec 19, 2008
3,024
766
I agree with you on this one wk057. Elon's overpromising and underdelivering is getting very old, and I suspect it will eventually lead to legal troubles. There are many people out there that have very deep pockets, and since Tesla's legal team is a joke, they will become an easy target.

Having said that, you probably shouldn't have mentioned legal recourse, because now since that's out there, Tesla is going to be on the defensive.
 

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