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Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

eloder

Active Member
Mar 12, 2015
1,214
1,427
Ohio, USA
As a lessee who is paying for a feature that they will be able to use for maybe 2/3rd of the lease... I'd be much more annoyed.


Are you also going to ask for rectification from Tesla when they introduce a new OTA feature that you'll have for maybe six months before your lease ends, since it wasn't available for the entire lease? It's the same thing as this situation, but in reverse. There are a number of announced but on the horizon features such as faster superchargers, a more comprehensive supercharger network, next-gen navigation and trip planner--you, and every other Tesla owner, will never receive full benefit from all of these features until buying a brand new car (and then they'll have even more features that they'll never fully benefit from).

It's completely unreasonable for them to compensate customers in any fashion for not being able to have the full benefit of OTA updates that are not yet available. They'd be out of business in half a year.

I just don't think there's anything Tesla can realistically do that would make you happy, If they released imperfect software (delivering early based on your expected timeframe), you'd be unhappy that you paid for working autopilot software but only got half-working autopilot software.

There are other people out there, I'm sure, that are expecting full autonomous driving from this update, and will be greatly disappointed when that's not the case too. I just don't simply see what Tesla, in good faith, can do to counteract this--it's the normal risk in being a consumer in any product.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
I've been personally trying to stay out of it, but failed this evening. It's just too much. What percentage of the posts in this thread are from you, personally? You clearly don't want dissenting opinion from people who aren't waiting for autopilot. And that pretty much answers all my questions. (Might note that this attitude is why self-moderation would never work...)

Good luck in your negotiations with Tesla. I suspect you'll get what you want short-term, if only to make you go away.

For the record, the only posts in this thread that I would have self-moderated if I had the capability were already moved to "snippiness" or deleted entirely after being reported to the moderators.

I'm fine with dissenting opinions. Everyone is welcome to their opinions even if they don't agree with mine. I do find it interesting, though, that the majority of dissenting opinions on this thread seem to be from non-owners entirely or from non-post-autopilot-announcement owners. As for the ones who are in the same boat and are of differing opinion, I've been honestly curious as to why, personally. At least for the investor-non-owners the reason for dissent is obvious and really has little weight on the matter and that should be reflected.

My problem is when the line is crossed and people start pushing that I'm in the wrong for my opinion or start presuming how I feel on a matter or how I should act based on their opposing opinions. That I have an issue with.

I also have an issue with people twisting my words into something they are not (which happened quite a bit early on in this thread).

Not once will you find me attacking anyone over an opposing opinion. I'll certainly strike back when attacked, however, because the "you should have known better" type posts get really old.
 
Even though I can personally hardly wait for auto-steer to be released, I've been in the software industry for over 15 years and absolutely understand all the challenges of releasing quality code.
If a new Photoshop version said "Now with FIVE shades of Blue!" on the cover, and when you installed it, only had the basic blue color in the palette but a promised blue upgrade down the road, is that reasonable for a software company? I'm putting together a bad analogy that maybe you'll appreciate given your vocation.

Anyway, I've said more than my peace. I'll bow out unless there's something new to discuss. Everyone please have a beer on me tonight. (Note, I'm not paying for it, just print out a picture of me and put your beer on it between sips.)
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,414
4,111
Phoenix, AZ
Here's what bothers me about this whole situation... When BMW announced the 2016 7 Series, it was announced with all of the features being promised by Tesla - and a ton more that put Model S to shame on the technology front. When the 7 Series ships, it ships with all of the features advertised and promised by BMW. None of this "soon" or "in several months" nonsense. The only reason I can think of for Tesla not doing it this way is this: When orders dip, Tesla has to pull a rabbit out of its hat to rekindle interest. I think that's what they tried to do. Despite all of Musk's statements that he is more concerned with quality than quarterly deliveries, I find his actions to be contrary to his words.

When BMW, Mercedes, and Audi get into Tesla's market - and they will - Tesla is going to be in big trouble. Huge trouble. Even now, three years into Model S production, Tesla still doesn't have its act together. Years have gone by and still the same communication issues that have been complained about for as long as I can remember. Nothing appears to be changing in a meaningful way in terms of how they operate. That's a huge red flag for me, and one that is making me rethink my long term investment in the stock.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
[/COLOR]

Are you also going to ask for rectification from Tesla when they introduce a new OTA feature that you'll have for maybe six months before your lease ends, since it wasn't available for the entire lease? It's the same thing as this situation, but in reverse. There are a number of announced but on the horizon features such as faster superchargers, a more comprehensive supercharger network, next-gen navigation and trip planner--you, and every other Tesla owner, will never receive full benefit from all of these features until buying a brand new car (and then they'll have even more features that they'll never fully benefit from).

It's completely unreasonable for them to compensate customers in any fashion for not being able to have the full benefit of OTA updates that are not yet available. They'd be out of business in half a year.

I just don't think there's anything Tesla can realistically do that would make you happy, If they released imperfect software (delivering early based on your expected timeframe), you'd be unhappy that you paid for working autopilot software but only got half-working autopilot software.

There are other people out there, I'm sure, that are expecting full autonomous driving from this update, and will be greatly disappointed when that's not the case too. I just don't simply see what Tesla, in good faith, can do to counteract this--it's the normal risk in being a consumer in any product.

We're not talking about something that may happen way down the road like faster supercharging. No where on my MVPA is there a line item with a price I paid for future faster supercharging. There is, however, a line item for autopilot with a paid price. There's a big difference than something that they talk about that may happen down the road and be available some day vs something that was demonstrated, paid for, and hasn't been delivered.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,414
4,111
Phoenix, AZ
Are you also going to ask for rectification from Tesla when they introduce a new OTA feature that you'll have for maybe six months before your lease ends, since it wasn't available for the entire lease? It's the same thing as this situation, but in reverse.

Not really. You're talking about an unannounced OTA feature showing up. Everyone else is discussing a promised feature upon which they based their purchase decision. World of difference.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
Here's what bothers me about this whole situation... When BMW announced the 2016 7 Series, it was announced with all of the features being promised by Tesla - and a ton more that put Model S to shame on the technology front. When the 7 Series ships, it ships with all of the features advertised and promised by BMW. None of this "soon" or "in several months" nonsense. The only reason I can think of for Tesla not doing it this way is this: When orders dip, Tesla has to pull a rabbit out of its hat to rekindle interest. I think that's what they tried to do. Despite all of Musk's statements that he is more concerned with quality than quarterly deliveries, I find his actions to be contrary to his words.

When BMW, Mercedes, and Audi get into Tesla's market - and they will - Tesla is going to be in big trouble. Huge trouble. Even now, three years into Model S production, Tesla still doesn't have its act together. Years have gone by and still the same communication issues that have been complained about for as long as I can remember. Nothing appears to be changing in a meaningful way in terms of how they operate. That's a huge red flag for me, and one that is making me rethink my long term investment in the stock.

Yep, I already have a few non-Tesla vehicles in mind to replace the P85D, should things go south, for these very reasons. When I buy one of them they'll do what it says they do and that's that. OTA updates are cool and all, but not when they lag paid features this far behind purchased. OTAs should be for improvements and additional features (even paid features once they're available) not for "deferred revenue."
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
My problem is when the line is crossed and people start pushing that I'm in the wrong for my opinion or start presuming how I feel on a matter or how I should act based on their opposing opinions. That I have an issue with.

You're welcome to your opinion. But I think you started complaining about this way too early and strongly. My reaction to you was driven by the fact that you were already making comments in other threads about this back in January.

I also have an issue with people twisting my words into something they are not (which happened quite a bit early on in this thread).

I'm going to assume this is somewhat directed at me over this post. I did not quote you out of context. Your dispute over that came down to that I split a post into two quotes. I did that because I was separating your complaints about torque sleep from the Autopilot delays. I thought I was adding clarity by doing that. In the end the way you behaved led me to stop posting on this thread entirely for quite a while.

So you've certainly done your share of twisting.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,414
4,111
Phoenix, AZ
Yep, I already have a few non-Tesla vehicles in mind to replace the P85D, should things go south, for these very reasons. When I buy one of them they'll do what it says they do and that's that. OTA updates are cool and all, but not when they lag paid features this far behind purchased. OTAs should be for improvements and additional features (even paid features once they're available) not for "deferred revenue."

I don't know if I'm being too harsh with this analogy, but Tesla reminds me of Commodore. Commodore had a revolutionary product in the Amiga that blew away all of its competition at the time. Commodore didn't listen to its customers. It iterated multiple Amiga models without addressing some fundamental, basic issues which customers had complained about. Eventually the rest of the industry eclipsed the capabilities of the Amiga while Commodore was still trying to pull its head out of its ass. Commodore basically killed itself.

I hope that Tesla faces a better fate, but I'm starting to see parallels that are making me uncomfortable.
 
I would agree with you if this were 2012, but it's 2015. I doubt customers who bought the car in the last 6 months to a year would agree with your statement about knowingly being beta testers. Tesla is no longer selling to early adopters. Tesla's current customer pool expects promises to be kept and features to be delivered on time. I don't remember the last time Apple missed a deadline.

My current car is a P85D. This was the first Tesla I have owned.

Apple is a totally different topic, but they have at times released things too early -- Certain versions of OSX, The iPhone 4's Antenna, iPad 3's GPU, the watch.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
You're welcome to your opinion. But I think you started complaining about this way too early and strongly. My reaction to you was driven by the fact that you were already making comments in other threads about this back in January.


I'm going to assume this is somewhat directed at me over this post. I did not quote you out of context. Your dispute over that came down to that I split a post into two quotes. I did that because I was separating your complaints about torque sleep from the Autopilot delays. I thought I was adding clarity by doing that. In the end the way you behaved led me to stop posting on this thread entirely for quite a while.

So you've certainly done your share of twisting.

As pointed out in those posts I was not seriously complaining about non-delivery of autopilot prior to this thread. I've poked jokes at it here and there, but was not seriously upset about it at that point, which was obvious at the time.

As for the twisting, I actually was referring to a set of posts somewhere up-thread where someone twisted my words and suggested that I recommended others take legal action against Tesla now, where I obviously did not.

And as for my responses to your posts that quoted me out of context, I stand by my replies to those posts which clarify the reasons on exactly why they're out of context and why quoting them out of context exaggerated their actual meaning well beyond their actual intent and context.
 

MarcG

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,963
5,648
San Francisco
I'm fine with dissenting opinions. Everyone is welcome to their opinions even if they don't agree with mine. I do find it interesting, though, that the majority of dissenting opinions on this thread seem to be from non-owners entirely or from non-post-autopilot-announcement owners. As for the ones who are in the same boat and are of differing opinion, I've been honestly curious as to why, personally.

I've mentioned my reasons in a post above. In short:

1) I work in SW so I know how it can be (and I don't even code, I'm a product manager so I take fire from all sides of the business)
2) I know what it means to be on the "bleeding edge" of new technology
3) I don't feel Tesla misled me when they announced "AutoPilot features will be released over the next several months", which they have so far with many AP features
4) I'm patient :biggrin:
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
I don't know if I'm being too harsh with this analogy, but Tesla reminds me of Commodore. Commodore had a revolutionary product in the Amiga that blew away all of its competition at the time. Commodore didn't listen to its customers. It iterated multiple Amiga models without addressing some fundamental, basic issues which customers had complained about. Eventually the rest of the industry eclipsed the capabilities of the Amiga while Commodore was still trying to pull its head out of its ass. Commodore basically killed itself.

I hope that Tesla faces a better fate, but I'm starting to see parallels that are making me uncomfortable.

Wow. This is a bit of deja vu.

I was having a conversation with a fellow trader today who made a strikingly similar analogy actually referring to Commodore.... creepy. :p
 

MarcG

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,963
5,648
San Francisco
If a new Photoshop version said "Now with FIVE shades of Blue!" on the cover, and when you installed it, only had the basic blue color in the palette but a promised blue upgrade down the road, is that reasonable for a software company? I'm putting together a bad analogy that maybe you'll appreciate given your vocation.

Bad analogy indeed. Tesla never said "Now with Autopilot INCLUDING lane keeping!"
A better analogy would be Adobe stating "Five shades of blue to be released in future versions over the next several months" and I would get a free update later on that would do just that. Very common in the software industry.
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
As pointed out in those posts I was not seriously complaining about non-delivery of autopilot prior to this thread. I've poked jokes at it here and there, but was not seriously upset about it at that point, which was obvious at the time.

Clear to you perhaps. Not clear to me. I thought you were serious.

And as for my responses to your posts that quoted me out of context, I stand by my replies to those posts which clarify the reasons on exactly why they're out of context and why quoting them out of context exaggerated their actual meaning well beyond their actual intent and context.

I really don't think you can quote someone out of context when the entirety of the words from the post were there and the link to the original source was there for people to read in place.

Then again it appears that I thought you were more serious than you apparently were.

So in my opinion I don't think your complaint is lack of context, but rather than I portrayed your statements differently than you meant them. But I portrayed them as I took them at the time you originally posted them.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
Clear to you perhaps. Not clear to me. I thought you were serious.



I really don't think you can quote someone out of context when the entirety of the words from the post were there and the link to the original source was there for people to read in place.

Then again it appears that I thought you were more serious than you apparently were.

So in my opinion I don't think your complaint is lack of context, but rather than I portrayed your statements differently than you meant them. But I portrayed them as I took them at the time you originally posted them.

Works for me.:cool:
 

Cyclone

Cyclonic Member ((.oO))
Jan 12, 2015
5,058
1,153
Charlotte, NC
I don't know if I'm being too harsh with this analogy, but Tesla reminds me of Commodore. Commodore had a revolutionary product in the Amiga that blew away all of its competition at the time. Commodore didn't listen to its customers. It iterated multiple Amiga models without addressing some fundamental, basic issues which customers had complained about. Eventually the rest of the industry eclipsed the capabilities of the Amiga while Commodore was still trying to pull its head out of its ass. Commodore basically killed itself.

I hope that Tesla faces a better fate, but I'm starting to see parallels that are making me uncomfortable.

Sadly, I can see this analogy being more and more valid with each passing month.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
Bad analogy indeed. Tesla never said "Now with Autopilot INCLUDING lane keeping!"
A better analogy would be Adobe stating "Five shades of blue to be released in future versions over the next several months" and I would get a free update later on that would do just that. Very common in the software industry.

Wow, Adobe must really be hurting if they need to sell updates for individual colors. ;)

Let us hope, for everyone's sake, that this wasn't an omen! :)

Yeah... definitely some scary parallels there, though.
 

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