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Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

Lerxt

Active Member
Feb 21, 2014
1,005
130
Australia
/RANT ON

And this is when things all go down the toilet.

Elon Musk and team are not doing this for money. Elon could have retired to an island a LONG time ago and anybody who has the capacity to make it as a key member of his team could doubtless be earning more elsewhere. These people are doing what they're doing because they have a passion and a mission - to advance sustainable transport and to advance automotive tech in a whole host of ways. I'm sure that ALL of these people are working absurd hours, are faced with severe financial constraints and are doing their damnedest to deliver high quality products & systems.

I think they are succeeding admirably. Yes there are problems and yes, they've probably made a few errors or over-promises. And yes some things are late. That comes with the personality type. People who have the guts and brains to reach beyond what exists inevitably fail to see the challenges sometime. That's the way that it works.

This ongoing whining, moaning and complaining that is starting to pervade some corners of this website HAS to be incredibly disheartening to the people who are driving like hell to get this done. And when people start to talk about lawsuits and such I'm sure some of them are ready to throw in the towel.

THIS is how companies like Tesla turn into companies like GM. Eventually people tire of the pissing and moaning and they lose the drive to push or innovate and they start to do the safe things. The enthusiastic engineers get pushed to the back room. The lawyers, accountants and PR people take over and they only commit to deliver what they can deliver without taking much risk or pushing too hard.

NOTHING can build enthusiasm like a group of equally enthusiastic supporters. And NOTHING can kill it like a group of whiners who see only downside and look for the failures.

Personally, I am tired about hearing about why my P85D doesn't deliver exactly 691HP. So bloody what? My P85D in amazing car, goes like stink and never fails to impress. And I'm tired about hearing that they're X months late on the autopilot. So bloody what?! I'll keep my hand on the steering wheel for a while longer while they work out the bugs and look forward to when it comes out. Being able to take my hands off the wheel for a bit is not going to change my life in any significant way.

Let's cut these guys some slack. Shooting off about lawyers, compensation and so-on isn't going to accomplish anything other than, perhaps, to damage the company. Elon & gang are putting things on the market that we shouldn't have seen for another decade.

Let's all have a beer and enjoy the ride.

/RANT OFF


Totally and completely agree. Too many whingers here. I really wonder what sort of person takes a company to court over something like this. It is clearly money hungry people just scratching for a way, any way, to sponge money out of Tesla.
 
Last edited:

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,784
12,608
Hickory, NC, USA
What would Tesla need to do to make it right for you, OP? Buy back your car?

At this point, what would you consider sufficient remedies? Warranty extension? A partial refund? I agree that you definitely have a basis to sue, but if you did, what specifically would you seek to obtain? I don't think your complaints are unjustified, just curious what would you like to see happen.

While still in informal discussions with Tesla on the matter I'm not going to point out anything specific just yet out of respect to those I've been speaking with. But suffice it to say there is quite a bit that can be done by them that would go a long way with little to no cost to them, and I think it would go a long way towards keeping good faith if they would extend the same to other customers as well, but we'll see.

Honestly, if I were to actually sue that would mean that all other avenues have been exhausted and at that point I wouldn't want anything to do with the company any more. I would certainly be seeking a full purchase price/fees + legal fees buyback at that point. I'm pretty sure it won't come to that.

I'm sure there are class action lawsuit lawyears willing to pursue this at their own cost.

There are, for sure, but honestly that's not the route I would like to take. In that case it's basically a win for the lawyers in exchange for a crippling blow to Tesla. If it comes down to that I think Tesla has some serious problems beyond the ones they already have.

---

When referring to the August 15th date for beta testers, I'm surprised no one has pointed out the obvious. "By the end of the month" -Elon Musk, Early June 2015; "2-3 weeks" -Elon Musk, Mid-July 2015; "August 15th" -Elon Musk, August 5, 2015. I'm sure there will be another to tag on to this in a few weeks. lol.


In any case, I think a lot of people are missing what this has actually done to many people, myself included, who have been strong proponents of Tesla. If you had asked me in say, November, if I would buy a non-Tesla vehicle in the future my answer would have been "Nope" or "most likely not" or something similar. Today? heh. At this point I'm pretty sure my next vehicle is *not* going to be a Tesla. You won't find me singing their praises lately. Just yesterday, like a lot of days, a random stranger asked me something along the lines of, "So, how do you like it?" about the car... and I just wasn't able to spit out my usual "It's awesome" type response. People who thought I was crazy trading a 1 year old P85 towards the P85D have asked me about it as well, after having been given the test-ride tour and overview by a much more enthusiastic 7 month younger self, and have noted that my enthusiasm has gone to the floor in comparison.

Since Tesla's marketing to date has been significantly driven by enthusiasts, and it's obvious I'm not the only one in this situation who feels similarly, I think this is a decent blow to Tesla as a whole and something they're going to have to do something about.... but maybe they think it's easier to just start spending significant funds on marketing instead of making existing customers and enthusiasts happy.
 
Last edited:

Auzie

Tree Hugger Member
Jul 29, 2013
1,898
45
Sydney
/RANT ON

And this is when things all go down the toilet.

Elon Musk and team are not doing this for money. Elon could have retired to an island a LONG time ago and anybody who has the capacity to make it as a key member of his team could doubtless be earning more elsewhere. These people are doing what they're doing because they have a passion and a mission - to advance sustainable transport and to advance automotive tech in a whole host of ways. I'm sure that ALL of these people are working absurd hours, are faced with severe financial constraints and are doing their damnedest to deliver high quality products & systems.

I think they are succeeding admirably. Yes there are problems and yes, they've probably made a few errors or over-promises. And yes some things are late. That comes with the personality type. People who have the guts and brains to reach beyond what exists inevitably fail to see the challenges sometime. That's the way that it works.

This ongoing whining, moaning and complaining that is starting to pervade some corners of this website HAS to be incredibly disheartening to the people who are driving like hell to get this done. And when people start to talk about lawsuits and such I'm sure some of them are ready to throw in the towel.

THIS is how companies like Tesla turn into companies like GM. Eventually people tire of the pissing and moaning and they lose the drive to push or innovate and they start to do the safe things. The enthusiastic engineers get pushed to the back room. The lawyers, accountants and PR people take over and they only commit to deliver what they can deliver without taking much risk or pushing too hard.

NOTHING can build enthusiasm like a group of equally enthusiastic supporters. And NOTHING can kill it like a group of whiners who see only downside and look for the failures.

Personally, I am tired about hearing about why my P85D doesn't deliver exactly 691HP. So bloody what? My P85D in amazing car, goes like stink and never fails to impress. And I'm tired about hearing that they're X months late on the autopilot. So bloody what?! I'll keep my hand on the steering wheel for a while longer while they work out the bugs and look forward to when it comes out. Being able to take my hands off the wheel for a bit is not going to change my life in any significant way.

Let's cut these guys some slack. Shooting off about lawyers, compensation and so-on isn't going to accomplish anything other than, perhaps, to damage the company. Elon & gang are putting things on the market that we shouldn't have seen for another decade.

Let's all have a beer and enjoy the ride.

/RANT OFF

+1

Repetitive complaining and moaning can be quite toxic, makes me sad for people that are on the receiving end of it.

Cheers to your rant if it comes with a beer, I am having a beer with you, now we have a party :smile:

Guys, we are having a party with plenty of beer. You're all welcome to join, please +1 sandpiper's rant, it comes with a beer:biggrin:
 
Last edited:

Auzie

Tree Hugger Member
Jul 29, 2013
1,898
45
Sydney
/RANT ON

And this is when things all go down the toilet.

Elon Musk and team are not doing this for money. Elon could have retired to an island a LONG time ago and anybody who has the capacity to make it as a key member of his team could doubtless be earning more elsewhere. These people are doing what they're doing because they have a passion and a mission - to advance sustainable transport and to advance automotive tech in a whole host of ways. I'm sure that ALL of these people are working absurd hours, are faced with severe financial constraints and are doing their damnedest to deliver high quality products & systems.

I think they are succeeding admirably. Yes there are problems and yes, they've probably made a few errors or over-promises. And yes some things are late. That comes with the personality type. People who have the guts and brains to reach beyond what exists inevitably fail to see the challenges sometime. That's the way that it works.

This ongoing whining, moaning and complaining that is starting to pervade some corners of this website HAS to be incredibly disheartening to the people who are driving like hell to get this done. And when people start to talk about lawsuits and such I'm sure some of them are ready to throw in the towel.

THIS is how companies like Tesla turn into companies like GM. Eventually people tire of the pissing and moaning and they lose the drive to push or innovate and they start to do the safe things. The enthusiastic engineers get pushed to the back room. The lawyers, accountants and PR people take over and they only commit to deliver what they can deliver without taking much risk or pushing too hard.

NOTHING can build enthusiasm like a group of equally enthusiastic supporters. And NOTHING can kill it like a group of whiners who see only downside and look for the failures.

Personally, I am tired about hearing about why my P85D doesn't deliver exactly 691HP. So bloody what? My P85D in amazing car, goes like stink and never fails to impress. And I'm tired about hearing that they're X months late on the autopilot. So bloody what?! I'll keep my hand on the steering wheel for a while longer while they work out the bugs and look forward to when it comes out. Being able to take my hands off the wheel for a bit is not going to change my life in any significant way.

Let's cut these guys some slack. Shooting off about lawyers, compensation and so-on isn't going to accomplish anything other than, perhaps, to damage the company. Elon & gang are putting things on the market that we shouldn't have seen for another decade.

Let's all have a beer and enjoy the ride.

/RANT OFF

This one :wink:
 
+1

Repetitive complaining and moaning can be quite toxic, makes me sad for people that are on the receiving end of it.

Cheers to your rant if it comes with a beer, I am having a beer with you, now we have a party :smile:

Guys, we are having a party with plenty of beer. You're all welcome to join, please +1 sandpiper's rant, it comes with a beer:biggrin:

+1 as well ... Having actually built things, I know exactly the decision sandpiper is talking about ... True innovation vs safe road ... Tesla is a TINY company up against juggernauts. Yeah, some people are now pointing to the new BMW 7 series -- Don't think for a moment that BMW would have done those things *now* if not for the Tesla Autopilot announcement.

Yeah, they are a little behind, but it's not because they are trying to scam you -- this is just a difficult task and they are working to get it right.

On the day that I decide that it's a lost cause, and I won't be happy with the car, I will sell it -- I am stunned at the discussion of some people talking about lawyers.

You want full purchase price back AND MORE? You've got ZERO value out of your P85D in 8 months? Get real. Did you take a depreciation hit by trading in a 1-year old car for a new car? Of course, but that was YOUR decision.
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
This "feature" is a particularly interesting one to me. I told everyone I know when I bought the car that I didn't believe for one minute that they would actually deliver this function on my car. I'm not 100% sure why I decided that, other than that during the press conference it was pretty clear that Elon was pretty much making it up as he went along.

Yeah I'm skeptical of some of the parking features.


This is kind of the line of thought that crystallized my thinking. I'm not sure what legal remedy I think an owner should be entitled to. The strongest would be to be made whole -- give the car back and get your money back. Not only do I think that solution is unlikely, I wouldn't take it even if they offered it to me. I don't want to give up my car, I just want it to be better. The more likely remedy is some kind of return of the difference between what you paid for and what you got. Presumably this would be limited to the extra cost of the autopilot suite. Except, I'd probably keep TACC for the same money or at least half of the money. Plus, maybe you should just be entitled to the interest you would have earned on that money in the year you didn't get the feature you wanted.

The MVPA limits damages to $2500. So really the best you can do is get your money back for Autopilot.

When referring to the August 15th date for beta testers, I'm surprised no one has pointed out the obvious. "By the end of the month" -Elon Musk, Early June 2015; "2-3 weeks" -Elon Musk, Mid-July 2015; "August 15th" -Elon Musk, August 5, 2015. I'm sure there will be another to tag on to this in a few weeks. lol.

It has been mentioned. I pointed out that maybe he's overestimating the answer now since he's missed it so much. Or maybe he's just entirely wrong. But one thing that I find useful is his timelines keep getting shorter. So maybe he's off but on his estimates but they are getting closer.


In any case, I think a lot of people are missing what this has actually done to many people, myself included, who have been strong proponents of Tesla. If you had asked me in say, November, if I would buy a non-Tesla vehicle in the future my answer would have been "Nope" or "most likely not" or something similar. Today? heh. At this point I'm pretty sure my next vehicle is *not* going to be a Tesla. You won't find me singing their praises lately. Just yesterday, like a lot of days, a random stranger asked me something along the lines of, "So, how do you like it?" about the car... and I just wasn't able to spit out my usual "It's awesome" type response. People who thought I was crazy trading a 1 year old P85 towards the P85D have asked me about it as well, after having been given the test-ride tour and overview by a much more enthusiastic 7 month younger self, and have noted that my enthusiasm has gone to the floor in comparison.

Since Tesla's marketing to date has been significantly driven by enthusiasts, and it's obvious I'm not the only one in this situation who feels similarly, I think this is a decent blow to Tesla as a whole and something they're going to have to do something about.... but maybe they think it's easier to just start spending significant funds on marketing instead of making existing customers and enthusiasts happy.

And all of that will fade once this issue is resolved. I had my issues with them in the past. Things got resolved and I'm back to being very positive about their product.
 

Lerxt

Active Member
Feb 21, 2014
1,005
130
Australia
The 2016 volt is an eco friendly alternative with 53 miles of Electric range. At 35k price point, it has autopilot. It is reasonable to expect tesla at 100k to have autopilot too, no?

( this post brought to you by the Motor Dealers Association of America)

No.

i would have thought you'd be rushing out to get that classy, high tech 53 mile range supercar. It has your favourite feature after all.
 

hpham007

Banned
Jul 17, 2015
166
1
Houston
The 2016 volt is an eco friendly alternative with 53 miles of Electric range. At 35k price point, it has autopilot. It is reasonable to expect tesla at 100k to have autopilot too, no?

Unlike most other manufacturers, GM actually gets MORE range than what they advertise. I absolutely hate GM and had terrible experiences with them in the past but if Tesla can't get a permanent solution to their drive unit issues, the Volt will probably be my next car.
 

hpham007

Banned
Jul 17, 2015
166
1
Houston
Another dealer account I suspect. There are no problems with the drive unit, as you well know. It's clear to me the dealers and old tech car companies have decided to run a campaign to discredit Tesla on this forum. Can we check the IPs of these new accounts?

Have we regressed to tin foil hat conspiracies already? Don’t you think it’s possible that people can love electric cars and still be objectionable?
 

darthy001

Love my car, hope Tesla can get as great!
Oct 29, 2012
726
58
Bærum, Norway
And all of that will fade once this issue is resolved.
If they fix the website soon I agree with you. If they dont I am starting to smell something fishy going on behind the scenes.

Why wouldnt they change the website wording with all of this critizism and questions being slung at them? We are talking about less than an hours amount of work.
 

JST

Active Member
May 23, 2013
1,560
228
This is the key. Some of you seem to think that Tesla is some sort of advanced research lab, kind of an MIT with an assembly line attached, seeking truth, scientific advancement, and clean transportation for all.

That's not what they are at all!

They did the demo and announcement when they did because they knew that the competition was already getting ahead of them. It was a classic move that Microsoft used to do to perfection in the 1980s and 1990s-- see what your competitors are working on, hack up a demo, and announce that you have the product done and are about to ship. Take all the fawning press coverage, etc., and then spend several years working to make it a reality while your competitors are already shipping and hardly anyone notices.


I think there's a lot of truth to this. Making Autopilot available has little to do with Tesla's mission of speeding electric vehicle adoption; I think they've gotten distracted by the idea that they need to be on the bleeding edge of automotive technology because they are a "tech" company and that's what people expect. So, they have to show off self-driving capability, even if in actuality they are well behind on the curve on these features.

One important caveat--I offer no comment on whether *developing* self-driving capability is an important strategic goal for Tesla. From Elon's bizarre reaction to the Uber question yesterday on the call, I assume that the company has decided that it is, and that they plan to challenge Google et al. in their development of autonomous vehicles. That may be a worthy goal, or even a necessary one, depending on how you think the industry will evolve--but it has NOTHING to do with whether they demo the feature in late 2014. That is something that they could keep developing "under wraps" without a flashy announcement about Autopilot's availability in existing cars.
 

Spidy

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
1,365
1,106
EU
Yeah, some people are now pointing to the new BMW 7 series -- Don't think for a moment that BMW would have done those things *now* if not for the Tesla Autopilot announcement.
The Mercedes S-Class already has active lane keeping assist. Also September 2013: Mercedes S-Class Intelligent Drive footage - Autonomous driving - YouTube If you had actually build a car before you would know that those decisions were probably made 5 years ago when it comes to the BMW 7-Series, maybe a final decision on self parking a bit later, but not a few months before launch when it's even a huge part of the marketing of the car. Not to mention they demoed the i3 self parking at the CES in January, I highly doubt they just put that together after an Autopilot release. Here is an article from February 2014 already speculating that the new 7 Series will probably have a lot of new assistance systems: BMW 7er G11: Neue Erlkönig-Fotos deuten viele Assistenzsysteme an (sorry for the formatting, but it somehow ignores new lines)
 

sandpiper

Active Member
Sep 25, 2014
2,833
2,322
Ontario, Canada
+1

Repetitive complaining and moaning can be quite toxic, makes me sad for people that are on the receiving end of it.

Cheers to your rant if it comes with a beer, I am having a beer with you, now we have a party :smile:

Guys, we are having a party with plenty of beer. You're all welcome to join, please +1 sandpiper's rant, it comes with a beer:biggrin:

No problem. :) Stop by my place one weekend and we'll have a beer!

- - - Updated - - -

Auzie:



Umm ... which beer?

Personally I'm partial to Waterloo Dark. :)
 

bonnie

I play a nice person on twitter.
Feb 6, 2011
16,429
9,934
Columbia River Gorge
One important caveat--I offer no comment on whether *developing* self-driving capability is an important strategic goal for Tesla. From Elon's bizarre reaction to the Uber question yesterday on the call, I assume that the company has decided that it is, and that they plan to challenge Google et al. in their development of autonomous vehicles. That may be a worthy goal, or even a necessary one, depending on how you think the industry will evolve--but it has NOTHING to do with whether they demo the feature in late 2014. That is something that they could keep developing "under wraps" without a flashy announcement about Autopilot's availability in existing cars.

Hope he has another place to stay when in the Bay area. Cuz the sleepovers at Larry's place are at risk with talk like this. :)
 

JMG

Member
Feb 26, 2015
386
264
NE Texas
/RANT ON

And this is when things all go down the toilet.

Elon Musk and team are not doing this for money. Elon could have retired to an island a LONG time ago and anybody who has the capacity to make it as a key member of his team could doubtless be earning more elsewhere. These people are doing what they're doing because they have a passion and a mission - to advance sustainable transport and to advance automotive tech in a whole host of ways. I'm sure that ALL of these people are working absurd hours, are faced with severe financial constraints and are doing their damnedest to deliver high quality products & systems.

I think they are succeeding admirably. Yes there are problems and yes, they've probably made a few errors or over-promises. And yes some things are late. That comes with the personality type. People who have the guts and brains to reach beyond what exists inevitably fail to see the challenges sometime. That's the way that it works.

This ongoing whining, moaning and complaining that is starting to pervade some corners of this website HAS to be incredibly disheartening to the people who are driving like hell to get this done. And when people start to talk about lawsuits and such I'm sure some of them are ready to throw in the towel.

THIS is how companies like Tesla turn into companies like GM. Eventually people tire of the pissing and moaning and they lose the drive to push or innovate and they start to do the safe things. The enthusiastic engineers get pushed to the back room. The lawyers, accountants and PR people take over and they only commit to deliver what they can deliver without taking much risk or pushing too hard.

NOTHING can build enthusiasm like a group of equally enthusiastic supporters. And NOTHING can kill it like a group of whiners who see only downside and look for the failures.

Personally, I am tired about hearing about why my P85D doesn't deliver exactly 691HP. So bloody what? My P85D in amazing car, goes like stink and never fails to impress. And I'm tired about hearing that they're X months late on the autopilot. So bloody what?! I'll keep my hand on the steering wheel for a while longer while they work out the bugs and look forward to when it comes out. Being able to take my hands off the wheel for a bit is not going to change my life in any significant way.

Let's cut these guys some slack. Shooting off about lawyers, compensation and so-on isn't going to accomplish anything other than, perhaps, to damage the company. Elon & gang are putting things on the market that we shouldn't have seen for another decade.

Let's all have a beer and enjoy the ride.

/RANT OFF

Just one more for good measure. I want to make sure this gets seen a lot.

This echoes my sentiments exactly. I still absolutely love my Tesla and can't imagine driving anything else.
 

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